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Redskins Rick

Orioles' last 5 tool player?

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As to who is a five-tool player, it all depends what you mean.    Does the player have to be outstanding in all five areas, or is a little above average OK?    If the latter, then sure I’d put Adam Jones in that category.    

Being a five-tool player may be overrated, though.    Frank Robinson didn’t have an above average arm.    Does anyone think Jones was the better player?   Maybe we need another category, excellent players with no glaring weakness.    Frank fits that category.   
 

 

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33 minutes ago, DrungoHazewood said:

I wonder if or how much those numbers are influenced by the fact that in Brooks' era there were a little over half as many strikeouts as in Manny's, and that far fewer players in the 1950s-70s tried to hit every ball in the air. 

Back of the napkin, I get 500 balls in play per team per season gone because of Ks, and another 150 from the GO/AO differences just from 1990-2019.  So if there were even more ground outs in 1966 the Orioles probably saw at least 300-400 more infield BIP than the 2019 Orioles.

As a very rough proxy, in Brooks’ career his range factor per 9 innings was 3.20 and league average was 3.09.    In Adrian Beltre’s career, he averaged 2.78 and league average was 2.67.     The .42 difference in league average equates to about 68 fewer chances per season.     But interestingly, the low point in league RF/9 during Beltre’s career was 2.23 in 2013.    It rebounded significantly after that, even though strikeouts were rising.     That’s a tough one to explain.      

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28 minutes ago, Frobby said:

As a very rough proxy, in Brooks’ career his range factor per 9 innings was 3.20 and league average was 3.09.    In Adrian Beltre’s career, he averaged 2.78 and league average was 2.67.     The .42 difference in league average equates to about 68 fewer chances per season.     But interestingly, the low point in league RF/9 during Beltre’s career was 2.23 in 2013.    It rebounded significantly after that, even though strikeouts were rising.     That’s a tough one to explain.      

Shifts.  Or that's my guess.  Lots of third baseman playing rover.

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1 hour ago, Can_of_corn said:

I'd also wager that the average exit velocity off the bat has increased enough to make a difference.

Yep.  In 1960 half the players in the league were Hanser Alberto.  Now there's one.

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45 minutes ago, Frobby said:

As to who is a five-tool player, it all depends what you mean.    Does the player have to be outstanding in all five areas, or is a little above average OK?    If the latter, then sure I’d put Adam Jones in that category.    

Being a five-tool player may be overrated, though.    Frank Robinson didn’t have an above average arm.    Does anyone think Jones was the better player?   Maybe we need another category, excellent players with no glaring weakness.    Frank fits that category.   
 

 

When I was a kid the Orioles thing was otherwise awful players with one glaring strength.  Other teams would throw them away, Earl would get them to OPS .800 in 240 PAs.

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52 minutes ago, Redskins Rick said:

Starters going 9 innings more and actually completing games, allow for more BIP. :)

Even your team's fireman/closer was expecting to pitch into the 3rd inning.

Lefty specialists for one batter was a concept not invented yet,

The days before the DH, even the AL played small ball, and bunting the running over, or the hit and run, sacrifice an out for movement of the runner.

Much easier to pitch 300 innings a year when the other team has a pitcher, a Ray Oyler, and a Kiko Garcia in the lineup, and they just give you three outs a game with sacrifices and slapping the ball behind the runner to move him over.

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Has anyone mentioned Markakis? His speed was never elite but he was quick enough to hit double digit steals a few times. Elite hit, plus arm, glove, and power. 
 

Seems like "5 Tool Player" usually means "Jack of all trades, master of none."

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49 minutes ago, Aristotelian said:

Has anyone mentioned Markakis? His speed was never elite but he was quick enough to hit double digit steals a few times. Elite hit, plus arm, glove, and power. 
 

Seems like "5 Tool Player" usually means "Jack of all trades, master of none."

Look earlier in the thread.

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4 hours ago, Can_of_corn said:

It was six posts down on Orioles talk.

But sure, I got you.

 

WARNING: If you want to avoid the "The Captain" (Jeter) fawning, skip to 1:35.

Thereafter, it's an enjoyable take on Hanser, with plenty of video of Baltimore Choppers and Texas Leaguers. His unsung retro rarity is confirmed by the fact that Baseball-reference.com's lists for him of "Similar Batters through [age] 26" and "Similar Batters" are the most unrecognizable motley crew I've ever encountered there (outside of Ronald Torreyes, but I'm in Flatbush, where the windows on the Target two blocks away are somehow still intact).

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I found this while researching another thread. LOL

Good for a laugh.

Quote

2008: Tim Beckham, Rays
School: Griffin (Ga.) HS
Career WAR (entering 2019): 5.1
Designated as a legitimate five-tool player out of high school, 

 

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16 hours ago, Aristotelian said:

Has anyone mentioned Markakis? His speed was never elite but he was quick enough to hit double digit steals a few times. Elite hit, plus arm, glove, and power. 
 

Seems like "5 Tool Player" usually means "Jack of all trades, master of none."

I don't think you can call a guy "elite hit" when his career high in BA is .306.

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4 minutes ago, DrungoHazewood said:

I don't think you can call a guy "elite hit" when his career high in BA is .306.

He probably was 5 tool in college with his OF play, batting. .439 with 21 HR and 92 rbis and pitching 12-0 record with 1 save and a 1.68 ERA. Had a 96 MPH heater.

 

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Adam Jones at his peak sure was.

Between the 2012 and 2013 seasons, he averaged: 15 SB, 31.5 HR, .286 AVG.  He was an All-Star, earned a Gold Glove, and finished in the top 13 in MVP voting in both years.

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