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Tony-OH

2020 Orioles draft review: Elias ends up with three first round talents

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3 minutes ago, interloper said:

Callis has the Os #4 in best drafts.

 

Please keep this in mind for everyone who thinks we just passed up Jeter for Rowell again....

 

Or do we only like Callis when he says things we agree with?

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9 minutes ago, Eric-OH said:

Please keep this in mind for everyone who thinks we just passed up Jeter for Rowell again....

 

Or do we only like Callis when he says things we agree with?

That’s true of all the analysts.   

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56 minutes ago, CallMeBrooksie said:

Explain to me how a 'Don't Tread on Me' has anything at all to do with Martin's shirt and I'll consider answering that question.

By the way.. the Baltimore Orioles themselves released an official statement in STRONG support of the very thing that Austin Martin, and damn near the whole world at this point save for a few, is taking a stand against right now. Are you upset about that as well? What baseball game did Austin Martin disrupt you from watching with his shirt that has been loudly supported by both the Orioles and the MLB?

If we really want to nitpick and project unfairly on these guys, maybe it's a red flag that Kjerstad came out and said "I'm going to be an impact player for sure..." One could argue he sounds a bit cocky, like he's already got it all figured out.

Apologies in advance to @Tony-OH and @weams because this is all clearly leads to political discussion, but I thought the characterization of Martin here was much too unfair to leave it alone.

Great, so having baseball players espouse your politics is important to you. I said I don't want politics and baseball to mix -- no matter where he is on the political spectrum.

Personally I thought your response to new Orioles Hangout poster Explosivio was much too unfair to leave alone, such as reading into "a fella like that" and certainly implying Explosivio's statements as racially derogatory.  He clearly has researched Martin via videos etc, and presented his take on Martin as a teammate. 

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1 hour ago, ScGO's said:

You are exactly right.  That's the lunge.  From its starting point, his head goes back, dips as it comes forward and then pops back up again right after contact.  

Now take this Pujols video, put your mouse icon on his head, and sit back and don't touch it.  I bet his head doesn't deviate from that icon.

 

 

 

2 hours ago, Greg Pappas said:

Wow... "...a fella like that."  Interesting. So, as you say, "Everything I have seen from Kjerstad is a guy who has taken every opportunity to not only make himself better by facing varied competition but also has a great desire to be a great teammate in the clubhouse." Yet, nothing you have seen points to the exact same from Martin? 

That was simple enough to find. 

Here's more from SI.com, 

Hmmmm.... again, interesting.

Everything I've read and listened to from every major analyst, coach, or teammate paint Martin as a leader that pushes his teammates to be their best.  He wants to win badly and has worked very hard to get where he is, while trying to get his teammates or "family" as he calls them, to rise with him.  He has played against the best competition at all levels. Talent aside, he is everything you say Kjerstad is, yet you see Kjerstad an an upstanding fella and Martin as, well, a fella like that... a red flag, because...? Oh yeah, Martin wore a tee shirt supporting a just cause that every GM in baseball supported during the draft. Or is it because you believe Kjerstad comes from, "exceptional families," and will make us proud, but Martin does not and will not? 

I replied because you clearly painted one player one way, and another in a different way, by using many comparable terms and phrases. Giving you the benefit of the doubt, I'll assume you haven't read enough about Martin and his qualities.

Thank you. 

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54 minutes ago, Eric-OH said:

Again, I respect your opinion.  Thanks for referring to my stuff as meaningless and biased.  I respect your opinion. I’m allowed to not like a certain player based on any reasons I have.  Meaningless or actual.  Just like you.  I respect your opinion and wouldn’t label your justification as meaningless or biased.  I have no bias.  I’ve never seen Martin play, only interviewed several times.  Based on that I was less than impressed.  When I watch guys already in the system I’m almost always impressed.  That’s a lack of a fit right there.  To me.

If your years of experience watching Martin and interacting with O’s players told you something different, I’d listen.  And I’d be open to learning somethings from another person.  
 

I’d hope anyone in a management position does things a bit different than posters on a website.  I got an Austin Martin card in a pack this afternoon and I’d be glad to send it to you free of charge.  
 

EDB0655F-86EE-4211-8F55-55E548BFFC46.jpeg

What kind of card is that? Those look pretty nifty. 

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3 hours ago, Greg Pappas said:

Wow... "...a fella like that."  Interesting. So, as you say, "Everything I have seen from Kjerstad is a guy who has taken every opportunity to not only make himself better by facing varied competition but also has a great desire to be a great teammate in the clubhouse." Yet, nothing you have seen points to the exact same from Martin? 

That was simple enough to find. 

Here's more from SI.com, 

Hmmmm.... again, interesting.

Everything I've read and listened to from every major analyst, coach, or teammate paint Martin as a leader that pushes his teammates to be their best.  He wants to win badly and has worked very hard to get where he is, while trying to get his teammates or "family" as he calls them, to rise with him.  He has played against the best competition at all levels. Talent aside, he is everything you say Kjerstad is, yet you see Kjerstad an an upstanding fella and Martin as, well, a fella like that... a red flag, because...? Oh yeah, Martin wore a tee shirt supporting a just cause that every GM in baseball supported during the draft. Or is it because you believe Kjerstad comes from, "exceptional families," and will make us proud, but Martin does not and will not? 

I replied because you clearly painted one player one way, and another in a different way, by using many comparable terms and phrases. Giving you the benefit of the doubt, I'll assume you haven't read enough about Martin and his qualities.

Those are quotes from others and from those who are selling the kid to scouts and to prognosticators. I'd say they are a bit biased dont you think? What are they going to say and why at that point would the say anything negative at all? My point is find one interview where Martin has said that teammates and comradeship matter and are an important part of his game. You can't. Meanwhile Kjerstad goes out of his way to say that's one of the parts about his game and his personality. I'm damn thrilled with Kjerstad and I do believe you will be too. I think he fits the culture perfectly and will be great in the clubhouse. Guys like Mancini and Means and Adley and Grayson are the type of guys I think Elias is building a culture around. I think Kjerstad will fit in perfectly with that group and they will all be better because of it. Martin had some red flags outside of his personality anyway. He had no real position at Vandy. He couldnt lock down a single one in college. His arm is weak so centerfielder would be a defensive liability, he couldnt lock down third or short in college so he'd be a liability there and he didn't display much power. He is fast but not that fast. Hes more instinctual and he runs the bases well. These are all coachable but the things he lacks you cant coach. 

 

Time will tell but I am thrilled with Kjerstad and the fact that we got a deal on a better player to get two more is the smart strategy for a shortened draft. Elias hit a homerun 3-5 years from now I think you will feel the same way.

I also think he really wanted Bitsko and the fact he was taken two picks earlier kinda threw a wrench in our plans but we ended up better up the middle and with more power potential bats but that's the uncertainty you get with drafting against top teams in the majors. Bitsko was one of those cant miss guys and others thought so as well.

I also didn't realize saying "a fella like that" was an affront to anyone. I only meant that it is indicative of his personality. Everything matters when you have the number two pick. You can afford to split hairs. I look at body language too. I look at family. I look at background. It all matters when figuring out who someone really is versus who someone wants you to believe. I have to do this for a living. It's part of what I get paid to do. I am good at it and i think i have Martin pegged. Time will tell but i have strong convictions for why i am right.

Edited by Explosivo

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4 minutes ago, Explosivo said:

Those are quotes from others and from those who are selling the kid to scouts and to prognosticators. I'd say they are a bit biased dont you think? What are they going to say and why at that point would the say anything negative at all? My point is find one interview where Martin has said that teammates and comradeship matter and are an important part of his game. You can't. Meanwhile Kjerstad goes out of his way to say that's one of the parts about his game and his personality. I'm damn thrilled with Kjerstad and I do believe you will be too. I think he fits the culture perfectly and will be great in the clubhouse. Guys like Mancini and Means and Adley and Grayson are the type of guys I think Elias is building a culture around. I think Kjerstad will fit in perfectly with that group and they will all be better because of it. Martin had some red flags outside of his personality anyway. He had no real position at Vandy. He couldnt lock down a single one in college. His arm is weak so centerfielder would be a defensive liability, he couldnt lock down third or short in college so he'd be a liability there and he didn't display much power. He is fast but not that fast. Hes more instinctual and he runs the bases well. These are all coachable but the things he lacks you cant coach. 

 

Time will tell but I am thrilled with Kjerstad and the fact that we got a deal on a better player to get two more is the smart strategy for a shortened draft. Elias hit a homerun 3-5 years from now I think you will feel the same way.

I also think he really wanted Bitsko and the fact he was taken two picks earlier kinda threw a wrench in our plans but we ended up better up the middle and with more power potential bats but that's the uncertainty you get with drafting against top teams in the majors. Bitsko was one of those cant miss guys and others thought so as well.

Smh... I didn't realize that everyone who has said he is a great teammate are exaggerating the truth. A bunch of phonies and liars obviously. AND Martin never conducted an interview that discussed that particular topic. Wow. Gotcha. You even question his talents... despite all evidence to the contrary. Your words and agenda are revealing.  I'm done with this. 

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3 hours ago, Greg Pappas said:

Wow... "...a fella like that."  Interesting. So, as you say, "Everything I have seen from Kjerstad is a guy who has taken every opportunity to not only make himself better by facing varied competition but also has a great desire to be a great teammate in the clubhouse." Yet, nothing you have seen points to the exact same from Martin? 

That was simple enough to find. 

Here's more from SI.com, 

Hmmmm.... again, interesting.

Everything I've read and listened to from every major analyst, coach, or teammate paint Martin as a leader that pushes his teammates to be their best.  He wants to win badly and has worked very hard to get where he is, while trying to get his teammates or "family" as he calls them, to rise with him.  He has played against the best competition at all levels. Talent aside, he is everything you say Kjerstad is, yet you see Kjerstad an an upstanding fella and Martin as, well, a fella like that... a red flag, because...? Oh yeah, Martin wore a tee shirt supporting a just cause that every GM in baseball supported during the draft. Or is it because you believe Kjerstad comes from, "exceptional families," and will make us proud, but Martin does not and will not? 

I replied because you clearly painted one player one way, and another in a different way, by using many comparable terms and phrases. Giving you the benefit of the doubt, I'll assume you haven't read enough about Martin and his qualities.

I'm not the only who feels his arm is iffy and his power is iffy. These are things he displayed as a player. He also is a player without a position. His best use is second base. I'm good on a non power threat second baseman who can get on a base. That type of player does not differentiate your team and it certainly isn't worth a #2 pick. So then you start looking at intangibles and there are red flags for me. That grades him lower in my book but what do I know? I'm not a scout. I'm just a fan of the O's and strongly want to share a world series with my dad before he kicks the bucket. Of course I painted each player differently. It's called analysis.  

Neither has Kjerstad. They asked him what he brought to the table, he said three things, my power bat, my athleticism and my ability to be a good teammate. Go look at the interview with Martin done in january 24th. He was asked the same exact question and he did not say being a good teammate. I'm just going by gut feeling and my the limited information I have before me. Vandy coach is a homer who is selling his kid. Especially so close to the draft, there is no way he would choose to say something negative about his guy. No way, no how. That would negatively impact his player, his reputation with other scouts and potentially future recruiting prospects. You can be done with this if youd like but I asked you a simple question. Show me where Martin has saying being a good teammate is an important part of his game. You cant. I've looked. He says he wants to be on the team, he will play anywhere the team asks and he feels what he brings to the team will make them better. No where does anyone else factor into anything he says. Hes a competitor, that's neat but it can cut both ways. I work with lawyers to help them pick juries for murder trials. I get paid handsomely to do so because I'm damn good at what I do. This is what I see in Martin. This my read on Kjerstad. This is my read on the type of people they are. I could be wrong but I dont think I am.

Edited by Explosivo

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If Bitsko was an actual 17 year old can't miss guy he wouldn't have lasted until Tampa's pick.

Good prospect sure, but hardly can't miss.  He pitched 33 innings in HS.

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2 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

If Bitsko was an actual 17 year old can't miss guy he wouldn't have lasted until Tampa's pick.

Good prospect sure, but hardly can't miss.  He pitched 33 innings in HS.

I hear you and you're right. You cant really say cant miss without at least a full season but the tools are there and Elias has shown with Grayson that he has an eye for elite high school pitching. Cikelo (sp?) The orioles scouting director made allusions that a pitcher was taken before they got their ability to do so. I only put two and two together to determine that was likely Bitsko. But you're right. Man, I really have to watch my P's and Q's with you guys as yall are prone to pick apart every word and apply your own definition. I like it though. I will learn to communicate my thoughts to fellow O's fans in better ways as to express my thoughts clearly to all.

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2 hours ago, interloper said:

Callis has the Os #4 in best drafts.

 

So I guess the question is if Elias had picked Martin or Lacy (both 60 rated overall players)  and picked the next best player with each pick would the O's draft be rated #2?

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1 minute ago, wildcard said:

So I guess the question is if Elias had picked Martin or Lacy (both 60 rated overall players)  and picked the next best player with each pick would the O's draft be rated #2?

I mean they could have simply picked whomever the Marlins were going to pick and finished with the second best draft.

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38 minutes ago, Explosivo said:

I hear you and you're right. You cant really say cant miss without at least a full season but the tools are there and Elias has shown with Grayson that he has an eye for elite high school pitching. Cikelo (sp?) The orioles scouting director made allusions that a pitcher was taken before they got their ability to do so. I only put two and two together to determine that was likely Bitsko. But you're right. Man, I really have to watch my P's and Q's with you guys as yall are prone to pick apart every word and apply your own definition. I like it though. I will learn to communicate my thoughts to fellow O's fans in better ways as to express my thoughts clearly to all.

While I'm picking at nits, Elias didn't select Grayson.

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6 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

While I'm picking at nits, Elias didn't select Grayson.

That is not a nit to Dan Duquette.

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7 minutes ago, wildcard said:

That is not a nit to Dan Duquette.

Well, I remember a lot of folks (including me) weren’t thrilled with the Rodriguez pick when it was made.    There were 2-3 more highly touted pitchers on the board at the time.      But Rodriguez has proved Rajsich knew what he was doing.    Hopefully this year’s draft class will do they same.   

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  • Posts

    • I'm not proclaiming him guilty of anything. My first post I said " If true boy was that a stupid thing to do." My second post I said " his alleged activity". Obviously evidence is scant at the moment and this might be something more in the lines of a clerical mistake or nothing at all.  
    • Lot of great points here. I agree and I'll wait for all the facts to come out. My guess the Orioles get a fine and this was used to be leverage the Astros situation for a sensational news story when things are quiet outside of the World Series that few actually care about.
    • Exactly. COVID restrictions really stopped the travel back and forth so it probably didn't make since to have Holt with the team and the minor leaguers. Either way, fraud is a really strong word to use and reeks of click bait by the NY Post.
    • That’s the thing, we have no idea when Holt was added to the coaches pension plan.  If it was when he was first hired in 2019 then it would seem more egregious, but if it was before this season as part of his promotion to Director of Pitching, then it seems more palatable, as his role was intended to blanket the majors & minors, and it sounds like the plan was for him to be in uniform on occasion, even if not once the game starts, since the number of coaches allowed during a game is limited. I just can’t see Elias potentially risking his career by covertly putting Holt in the coaches pension plan without getting approval from the Orioles HR department, or whoever is responsible for matters like this in the organization, along with MLB.  Elias is a smart guy, and only 2 years into what is likely his dream job as the GM of a Major League Baseball team.   I’m sure the other 3 coaches that were designated had to be approved as well, so if there was any issue with designating Holt as the 4th coach, you would think Elias and the O’s organization would have been told that when they first put him on the list of 4. To me, this article seems more like sensationalism, trying to tie Elias in with the Astros cheating scandal and making it seem like this situation with Holt is more of the same, as if anyone associated with the Astros must be deceptive and dishonest.  And the fact that they singled out Anthony Sanders as a coach that got  “screwed” seems like the lawsuit/claim of fraud could have come from his agent, because clearly this story was leaked by someone with an axe to grind.  But what if Holt was designated the 4th coach before Sanders got hired?  The point is, we don’t have all the facts, so to just assume Elias did this covertly to appease Holt without getting approval from anyone seems very irresponsible from a journalistic perspective.   Just the fact that this is being reported at all is obviously unsettling if you’re an O’s fan and a supporter of Elias, but I think this is more about sensationalism and click bait, by using the headline “Ex-Astros” and “fraud” to get people worked up about what is likely not much of anything.  It will be interesting to see if Elias or someone else with the organization talks about it and tries to clear it up, because you know that if he/they don’t, more and more people will start to wonder if this really could be a much more serious situation than it currently appears to be.
    • Yea, seems like an administrative issue with a potential fine at most. 
    • Remember when James Franklin was supposed to be the coach in waiting then wasn't? Lord almighty the MD decision makers for sports are awful.  BTW, Tagovailoa is awful. He looks scared, unprepared, inaccurate, and has really poor decision making skills. Good Lord, this is the guy who is the best they can find with all the transfers? Nice job there Locksley.
    • I am sorry but the word Fraud here is a little strong.  There are rules on which coaches can be listed to be eligible for the MLB pension and there maybe a question whether or not his role this past season qualifies or not.  I suspect the fact there were no minor leagues and the whole COVID situation may have changed what that role end up being probably is a factor.  To me fraud would be an intention to deceive what his role was, not whether it qualifies or not.  However in the world we live in today I guess it pays to use words like fraud. It makes the story more interesting. 
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