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NEW 60 GAME Proposal [Baseball is Back!]

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14 hours ago, Frobby said:

  But nobody was expecting at the time that the season would be played without fans.     It’s a mess.
 

In March? Uh, no that was a very real possibility by then. The information about how fast it can spread and the length in what it would take to get a viable vaccine were known. If either party is suffering because they thought otherwise when agreeing to the deal. They have nothing but their own ignorance to blame.

We didn't have the information about a need for mask, indoor vs outdoor transmission at the time, but those factors shouldn't have made a season with fans less viable. if anything, more viable.

 

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1 hour ago, Moose Milligan said:

It's odd to me that people feel the need to come down on one side or another here, players vs owners.

It's odd to you that people are invested in choosing a side in a labor dispute between two parties that are immensely important to American culture...? That seems odd to ME. I don't see how, say, Hanser Alberto wanting to make 100K more to play a season in the midst of a pandemic where multiple players have already contracted the virus and the Angelos brothers who have been exurbiantly wealthy their entire lives not wanting to take a brief loss for a year are at all on the same level of "suck." We have an owner saying owning an MLB team isn't that profitable and then buying a 9 million dollar LA mansion. It baffles me that you can flip on the TV every night and watch PLAYERS play baseball and then not take their side in a dispute against billionaires.

Edited by LTO's
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7 minutes ago, LTO's said:

It's odd to you that people are invested in choosing a side in a labor dispute between two parties that are immensely important to American culture...? That seems odd to ME. I don't see how, say, Hanser Alberto wanting to make 100K more to play a season in the midst of a pandemic where multiple players have already contracted the virus and the Angelos brothers who have been exurbiantly wealthy their entire lives not wanting to take a brief loss for a year are at all on the same level of "suck." We have an owner saying owning an MLB team isn't that profitable and then buying a 9 million dollar LA mansion. It baffles me that you can flip on the TV every night and watch PLAYERS play baseball and then not take their side in a dispute against billionaires.

If it's odd to you, you don't understand that a lot of fans are going to walk away from this and not come back.  You can say that these parties are immensely important to American culture but...are they?  Look at the other thread here where people are discussing how they don't really miss MLB and are finding other things to do with their time.  Keep in mind, these are diehard fans, ones that visit a message board dedicated to their mostly $#*!ty team and have been doing so for years.  I mean, @Tony-OHwould seriously consider folding up shop, or selling it to an interested party if there's no MLB this year.  So if baseball, according to you, is so immensely important to American culture, shouldn't players and owners both take it on the head?  If American culture (your words, not mine) is at stake, can you really put a price on it?

Per what @Mr. Chewbacca Jr.said, this isn't your local steamfitters against some corporation.  These are, any way you cut it, rich guys vs. more rich guys.  Maybe when talking about the players you can't say they're ALL rich...maybe the better description is this is privileged guys vs. rich guys.  

 

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44 minutes ago, Mr. Chewbacca Jr. said:

I think this is how most people feel. Baseball is an entertainment product, when it comes down to it. There's a suspension of disbelief involved with being a fan - just like being entertained by watching a movie. We obviously know that Jurassic Park isn't a real thing, but that doesn't stop us from being thrilled, scared, and emotionally moved when the T Rex breaks out of its cage and tries to eat the kids in the car. With being a baseball fan, there's a similar suspension of disbelief - we buy expensive hats and jerseys to feel part of the team's success even though we contribute absolutely nothing in the field of play, we can vilify other teams like the Yankees and Red Sox even though they are made up of innocent twenty-something kids, we can forget that we're paying large portions of our modest paycheck to watch millionaires throw a ball around.

That suspension of disbelief is a pretty fragile thing and is rather fleeting. Our ability to enjoy a movie can quickly die if an actor is exposed as being a not-so-great person. No one is listening to R Kelly anymore. People boycott restaurants or stores if it is discovered that they are donating to a backward political cause. Our ability to be a diehard fan can be affected in a similar way.

The public bickering and negotiations pulls back the curtain and makes people wake up and realize what professional baseball really is. MLB is built on a foundation of people paying expensive fees for cable subscriptions, overpriced beer and hotdogs, sales of ridiculous clothing that has the logo of a corporation on it, and bullying local governments to fund expensive stadiums. It's all a bit insidious.

There's plenty of articles out there about who is right or wrong - and most of that comes down to larger discussions about unions vs. corporations. At the end of the day, this isn't the local steamfitters union taking on an abusive corporation. It's a bunch of rich people arguing over when they're going to play games in extremely expensive stadiums that were publicly funded....that will be broadcast on cable subscriptions that people have still been paying for all year without any games at all. They're both wrong - and if they can't get their act together, it'll cause severe lasting damage.

I'd buy expensive Orioles stuff but that doesn't make me feel successful.  Cause..well...y'know...

Good point on steamfitters vs. corporations.  Any argument about relating real work life union labor struggles to MLB is most likely a poor one.

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45 minutes ago, LTO's said:

It's odd to you that people are invested in choosing a side in a labor dispute between two parties that are immensely important to American culture...? That seems odd to ME. I don't see how, say, Hanser Alberto wanting to make 100K more to play a season in the midst of a pandemic where multiple players have already contracted the virus and the Angelos brothers who have been exurbiantly wealthy their entire lives not wanting to take a brief loss for a year are at all on the same level of "suck." We have an owner saying owning an MLB team isn't that profitable and then buying a 9 million dollar LA mansion. It baffles me that you can flip on the TV every night and watch PLAYERS play baseball and then not take their side in a dispute against billionaires.

I would be fine if the Orioles were replaced at Camden Yards by an MLS and/or NWSL soccer team. I like the stadium and going outside and having a beer and a boogs barbecue and cheering on the team. Not much cheering last two years.  They players aren't any more special than the players in the NWSL.  Certainly the currently Orioles I would rate lower.  I almost got hit in the head with a ball walking on Eutaw Street in 2018 with Tilman pitching.  Last year I went to a game when the Orioles gave up 15 runs and 5 home runs.  It isn't a pretty.   

I think the super rich players tweeting constantly isn't helping.  Really makes me not watch another baseball game ever.  If we had Adam Jones, Wieters, Britton, Hardy and Markakis in their prime again it would be a little easier to be on the players side.  But if the whole roster was released tomorrow would you really care?

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32 minutes ago, Moose Milligan said:

I'd buy expensive Orioles stuff but that doesn't make me feel successful.  Cause..well...y'know...

Good point on steamfitters vs. corporations.  Any argument about relating real work life union labor struggles to MLB is most likely a poor one.

The union is only looking out for the highest paid players anyway.  The union doesn't care about the minor league players.  And the only players I hear talking are guys who have got their millions already and have multi-year contracts. 

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1 hour ago, Scalious said:

In March? Uh, no that was a very real possibility by then. The information about how fast it can spread and the length in what it would take to get a viable vaccine were known. If either party is suffering because they thought otherwise when agreeing to the deal. They have nothing but their own ignorance to blame.

We didn't have the information about a need for mask, indoor vs outdoor transmission at the time, but those factors shouldn't have made a season with fans less viable. if anything, more viable.

 

Masks were pretty much unavailable even in February so people were more wise to it even back then. 

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1 hour ago, Mr. Chewbacca Jr. said:

I think this is how most people feel. Baseball is an entertainment product, when it comes down to it. There's a suspension of disbelief involved with being a fan - just like being entertained by watching a movie. We obviously know that Jurassic Park isn't a real thing, but that doesn't stop us from being thrilled, scared, and emotionally moved when the T Rex breaks out of its cage and tries to eat the kids in the car. With being a baseball fan, there's a similar suspension of disbelief - we buy expensive hats and jerseys to feel part of the team's success even though we contribute absolutely nothing in the field of play, we can vilify other teams like the Yankees and Red Sox even though they are made up of innocent twenty-something kids, we can forget that we're paying large portions of our modest paycheck to watch millionaires throw a ball around.

That suspension of disbelief is a pretty fragile thing and is rather fleeting. Our ability to enjoy a movie can quickly die if an actor is exposed as being a not-so-great person. No one is listening to R Kelly anymore. People boycott restaurants or stores if it is discovered that they are donating to a backward political cause. Our ability to be a diehard fan can be affected in a similar way.

The public bickering and negotiations pulls back the curtain and makes people wake up and realize what professional baseball really is. MLB is built on a foundation of people paying expensive fees for cable subscriptions, overpriced beer and hotdogs, sales of ridiculous clothing that has the logo of a corporation on it, and bullying local governments to fund expensive stadiums. It's all a bit insidious.

There's plenty of articles out there about who is right or wrong - and most of that comes down to larger discussions about unions vs. corporations. At the end of the day, this isn't the local steamfitters union taking on an abusive corporation. It's a bunch of rich people arguing over when they're going to play games in extremely expensive stadiums that were publicly funded....that will be broadcast on cable subscriptions that people have still been paying for all year without any games at all. They're both wrong - and if they can't get their act together, it'll cause severe lasting damage.

This is a great post. My only quibble would be when you said , "People boycott restaurants or stores if it is discovered that they are donating to a backward political cause," and would replace that with a "political cause they don't agree with". 

I get asked all the time, when do I think baseball will start and what do I think about all of this. My quick answer is usually, "It's millionaires against billionaires trying to split up an exorbitant amount of money while not giving two sh*ts about the fans or the lasting damage they will do to a sport that is declining in popularity." 

I honestly don't care who is more at fault anymore. I'm just starting to lose my care at all, and I'm finding that more and more disturbing.

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15 minutes ago, Tony-OH said:

This is a great post. My only quibble would be when you said , "People boycott restaurants or stores if it is discovered that they are donating to a backward political cause," and would replace that with a "political cause they don't agree with". 

I get asked all the time, when do I think baseball will start and what do I think about all of this. My quick answer is usually, "It's millionaires against billionaires trying to split up an exorbitant amount of money while not giving two sh*ts about the fans or the lasting damage they will do to a sport that is declining in popularity." 

I honestly don't care who is more at fault anymore. I'm just starting to lose my care at all, and I'm finding that more and more disturbing.

I'm finding more joy in my OOTP games.  I'm not kidding.

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32 minutes ago, Tony-OH said:

My quick answer is usually, "It's millionaires against billionaires trying to split up an exorbitant amount of money while not giving two sh*ts about the fans or the lasting damage they will do to a sport that is declining in popularity." 

Baseball is still immensely popular. This is not a compelling argument.

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9 minutes ago, LTO's said:

Believe me, it's very obvious you don't like the Orioles. You have a near constant aversion to logic when comes to your feelings toward the Orioles so there is no pleasing you. Just the other day I saw you admit that paying high dollar free agents like Mike Trout is mostly foolish and not a great way to build a team and in the same breath you spent the past two season complaining every day the Os didn't sign some bum has-been to try to win 70 games. Personally i think your entire persona on this board is an elaborate troll and your steadfast pursuit of being needlessly contrarian is impressive. I mean, if you honestly would rather have non-televised soccer be played in Camden Yards than the Orioles, why are you even here?!

Agree with LTO's. This take can't be real, right? Possibly one of the most ridiculous things I have read on this board in...well, ever.

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