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Jon Meoli: Has 6 non rostered O's on the OD roster

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2 hours ago, Tony-OH said:

I don't see a lot of scenarios besides him getting sick that will stop this from happening.

For sure. I think most here agree that gaming service time is not a great look and maybe shouldn’t be allowed but it is and it would be silly to not take advantage of it (assuming that’s what is going on).

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2 minutes ago, survivedc said:

For sure. I think most here agree that gaming service time is not a great look and maybe shouldn’t be allowed but it is and it would be silly to not take advantage of it (assuming that’s what is going on).

Yea, for a top prospect.

I'm making the argument that the team would have benefited more from having Mountcastle up last September than will occur from him perhaps becoming a Arb 4 player.

 

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40 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

Yea, for a top prospect.

I'm making the argument that the team would have benefited more from having Mountcastle up last September than will occur from him perhaps becoming a Arb 4 player.

 

Ah, well if that’s your argument, I think you’re wrong. I’m generally in the camp that players need time to acclimate to each level. Mountcastle might end up being a good+ player but he likely won’t approach that level for a year or two. Fortunately the team’s best chance to be good won’t happen for three or so years, which would mean Mountcastle has a chance to be on a competitive team under control for 4 years. 
 

Sure there is a chance the CBA changes, but I doubt it would immediately eliminate this manipulation and even so you may as well play under the rules as the exist.

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3 minutes ago, survivedc said:

Ah, well if that’s your argument, I think you’re wrong. I’m generally in the camp that players need time to acclimate to each level. Mountcastle might end up being a good+ player but he likely won’t approach that level for a year or two. Fortunately the team’s best chance to be good won’t happen for three or so years, which would mean Mountcastle has a chance to be on a competitive team under control for 4 years. 
 

Sure there is a chance the CBA changes, but I doubt it would immediately eliminate this manipulation and even so you may as well play under the rules as the exist.

How much did it help Means?

I think Mountcastle could have benefited from facing major league pitching, perhaps it would have helped him realize that just because you can make contact with a pitch it doesn't mean you should swing at it.  He also could have used more reps in the field.

Going into the offseason with that kind of experience to build off of couldn't have hurt.

As for the extra control? 

Will he:

Still be a major league player?

Still an Oriole?

Worth paying Arb 4?

Not playing under an extension?

All of the above assume no changes in the CBA.  I think the odds are pretty remote the O's see any benefit down the line.

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11 minutes ago, survivedc said:

Ah, well if that’s your argument, I think you’re wrong. I’m generally in the camp that players need time to acclimate to each level. Mountcastle might end up being a good+ player but he likely won’t approach that level for a year or two. Fortunately the team’s best chance to be good won’t happen for three or so years, which would mean Mountcastle has a chance to be on a competitive team under control for 4 years. 
 

Sure there is a chance the CBA changes, but I doubt it would immediately eliminate this manipulation and even so you may as well play under the rules as the exist.

The argument is, if you are a service time manipulated guy, you are definitely a super 2 guy. So you are going to be one of the relatively rare guys who is under arbitration for 4 years.


So, in the worst case scenario where you don’t end up that good, you aren’t tendered that long, so it never mattered. In the best case scenario, guys who are actually good enough to be tendered that long are essentially being paid free agent prices in their 4th year of arbitration anyway, so it doesn’t really matter. At least it doesn’t matter enough to hold a guy back. 

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1 hour ago, makoman said:

The argument is, if you are a service time manipulated guy, you are definitely a super 2 guy. So you are going to be one of the relatively rare guys who is under arbitration for 4 years.


So, in the worst case scenario where you don’t end up that good, you aren’t tendered that long, so it never mattered. In the best case scenario, guys who are actually good enough to be tendered that long are essentially being paid free agent prices in their 4th year of arbitration anyway, so it doesn’t really matter. At least it doesn’t matter enough to hold a guy back. 

It isn’t about salary as much as it is about control. So it does matter. 

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1 hour ago, Can_of_corn said:

How much did it help Means?

I think Mountcastle could have benefited from facing major league pitching, perhaps it would have helped him realize that just because you can make contact with a pitch it doesn't mean you should swing at it.  He also could have used more reps in the field.

Going into the offseason with that kind of experience to build off of couldn't have hurt.

As for the extra control? 

Will he:

Still be a major league player?

Still an Oriole?

Worth paying Arb 4?

Not playing under an extension?

All of the above assume no changes in the CBA.  I think the odds are pretty remote the O's see any benefit down the line.

If he isn’t a major league player then none of this matters anyway. Great point.

Obviously I agree he could benefit from seeing pitching and learning from it. I said as much in my post. Selfishly I wanted Mountcastle up sometime in the middle of the year last year. I thought he was ready.

I think the odds are more remote the O’s see harm down the line, meanwhile, the potential benefit that you can effectively extend your competitive window by a year is signficant.

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5 hours ago, Can_of_corn said:

How much did it help Means?

I think Mountcastle could have benefited from facing major league pitching, perhaps it would have helped him realize that just because you can make contact with a pitch it doesn't mean you should swing at it.  He also could have used more reps in the field.

Going into the offseason with that kind of experience to build off of couldn't have hurt.

As for the extra control? 

Will he:

Still be a major league player?

Still an Oriole?

Worth paying Arb 4?

Not playing under an extension?

All of the above assume no changes in the CBA.  I think the odds are pretty remote the O's see any benefit down the line.

How much did a September call-up help Schoop?    He made the OD roster the next year and put up a mighty .598 OPS.    Of course, his 4th year of Arb wouldn’t have mattered, the way things worked out.   But I’d still say he would have had more trade value in July 2018 if teams had an extra year of potential control to play with.

I don’t want to belabor the point.    I’m sure with some thought I could come up with 25 examples of players who struggled the year after a September call-up but turned out to be good players, and 25 examples of guys who did really well after a September call-up.    None of that is going to change anyone’s mind.     At the end of the day, it’s unprovable whether a call-up would have benefited Mountcastle, and we won’t know for 6 years whether an extra year of control would have been important or not.    At some point we just need to move on and stop obsessing with this point.   
 

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