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SteveA

On a day the Orioles play the Mets, Tom Seaver pases away at 75

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2 hours ago, SteveA said:

He suffered from dementia for quite a while, and also had Covid-19.

Actually his dementia diagnosis was in March, 2019 according to the article I read.  It can go on for much, much longer.  In any case, 75 is far too young.  RIP Tom Seaver.

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Met him briefly during an autograph session during a hall of fame weekend.  A VIP Mets fan was placed right in front of me and Seaver was in no hurry to end his conversation with that fan.  Was really impressed that Seaver wasn't merely trying to give the VIP his $s worth, but was sincerely enjoying the discussion.

I was a big fan of the Big Red Machine Cincinnati Reds and was really upset at the 1981 strike season rules where the Reds may have been the best team in the NL, but didn't make the playoffs because of the first half/second half format.  Seaver was 14-2 that season - nearly automatic.

For the saber guys, Seaver put up not one, but two 10 WAR seasons per Baseball Reference.  RIP Tom Seaver.  Respect.

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8 hours ago, DrungoHazewood said:

You can make a case that he's the greatest pitcher ever.  Everyone else you usually see on the shortlist either played a century ago in (much) more primitive competitive environments, or has a cloud of PED use hanging over them.

I would really be interested in any case that you can make for him being the greatest pitcher ever. Not being flippant, I would really love your thoughts. 

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8 hours ago, DrungoHazewood said:

You can make a case that he's the greatest pitcher ever.  Everyone else you usually see on the shortlist either played a century ago in (much) more primitive competitive environments, or has a cloud of PED use hanging over them.

Just looked at the list, and can’t really argue with you.   The only modern pitcher ahead of him in pitcher WAR is Clemens, and he’s tainted.    Maddux and R. Johnson are close.   

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My family (Mets Fans ) very happy right now .....In a game at Mets stadium they made the Yankees bullpen work.......And J D Davis got revenge on Chapman ( Chapman hit Davis in the hip 5-6 days ago causing Davis to miss games) Davis got his revenge by hitting a bottom of 9th game-tying Home Run ....... Pete Alonso hit walk-off Home Run in extra innings in a game that was started with a ceremony paying tribute to Tom Seaver .

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10 hours ago, Jagwar said:

I would really be interested in any case that you can make for him being the greatest pitcher ever. Not being flippant, I would really love your thoughts. 

It's certainly not a lock, and I wouldn't personally pick him.  But it goes something like this:

The shortlist is Cy Young, Walter Johnson, Clemens, Lefty Grove, Seaver, Maddux, Johnson.  Maybe you could make some kind of case for Kid Nichols, Pete Alexander, Christy Mathewson. 

Young, Johnson, Grove, Nichols, Alexander, and Mathewson played 90-120 years ago when the league was segregated, only had 16 teams in the eastern half of the country, mostly didn't have affiliated minors, almost no foreign players, modern scouting and analysis was all but unknown, and pitchers clearly paced to try to throw a complete game all the time.  I would argue that it's almost impossible to say someone from that era is comparable to a top pitcher from the past 50 years.  All of them were able to save their best stuff for the key moments of games.  Walter Johnson and Grove probably threw in the 90s, but they almost certainly weren't throwing 98 mph for 300-400 innings. An average MLB fastball in 1915 was probably about 80 mph.

Clemens has the PED stuff.

Maddux and Johnson have almost as good a case as Seaver, possibly better.  Johnson I think you can eliminate because he just wasn't that good until he found his control at 30.  Maddux was never a huge strikeout pitcher, and relied on his defenses more than Seaver.  I'm also a little wary of 260 ERA+es from Maddux that really are only possible in a very high run environment like the 90s.  For Seaver to have a 260 in 1970ish he'd have had to have like an 0.70 ERA, which is essentially impossible.

So after all that you're left with Tom Seaver.  Personally I'd pick Clemens, but I get why others wouldn't.

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