Nunez DFA

[RZNJ]

On 11/24/2020 at 1:19 PM, wildcard said:

So Hyde loves Mullins' defend in center and Mullins hits right-hander for almost a 800 OPS and Hyde is going to just sit Mullins  so can DH Stewart.  Makes no sense to me.

If Mullins continues to hit for an 800 OPS against RHP, he'll get a lot of AB's.  Agreed.

[Philip]

Well, nobody wanted to give anything for Nunez, so he cleared waivers. That reinforces that he had zero trade value. So that’s one question settled. And he wasn’t worth 2 million, either.

As a free agent he can sign with anyone for any amount. And several AL teams might be interested. It remains to be seen whether he’ll get a ML contract but  I’m sure he’s going to be playing somewhere next season. All best to him.

[Sports Guy]

1 hour ago, Philip said:

Well, nobody wanted to give anything for Nunez, so he cleared waivers. That reinforces that he had zero trade value. So that’s one question settled. And he wasn’t worth 2 million, either.

As a free agent he can sign with anyone for any amount. And several AL teams might be interested. It remains to be seen whether he’ll get a ML contract but  I’m sure he’s going to be playing somewhere next season. All best to him.

He’s worth .5-1 WAR.  That’s obviously worth more than 2M

[Jammer7]

48 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

He’s worth .5-1 WAR.  That’s obviously worth more than 2M

No team was willing to pay that, so I guess he isn't worth that, not right now anyway. 🤷‍♂️

[Frobby]

1 hour ago, Sports Guy said:

He’s worth .5-1 WAR.  That’s obviously worth more than 2M

Apparently it’s not that obvious or someone would have traded for him.   The market for WAR is not linear, even if you can make the argument that it should be.   

[Philip]

1 hour ago, Sports Guy said:

He’s worth .5-1 WAR.  That’s obviously worth more than 2M

Ummm, it seems not.

[Sports Guy]

3 hours ago, Frobby said:

Apparently it’s not that obvious or someone would have traded for him.   The market for WAR is not linear, even if you can make the argument that it should be.   

No, it absolutely is the formula and what’s he’s worth.  That’s a fact.

However, there are only a few teams that need a DH, so it’s not surprising that the market isn’t there..plus, you have announced that you are cutting him, so why trade for him with so little completion?

[RZNJ]

1 hour ago, Sports Guy said:

No, it absolutely is the formula and what’s he’s worth.  That’s a fact.

However, there are only a few teams that need a DH, so it’s not surprising that the market isn’t there..plus, you have announced that you are cutting him, so why trade for him with so little completion?

Your tone of authority when you are clearly in a fog is admirable.  Anyone who thought his arbitration number was a bargain, as you suggest, could have offered a warm body to secure his services before he hit the open market.  What won't make sense is if any team offers him 2M or more now that he's available to any team that wants him.

[Sports Guy]

28 minutes ago, RZNJ said:

Your tone of authority when you are clearly in a fog is admirable.  Anyone who thought his arbitration number was a bargain, as you suggest, could have offered a warm body to secure his services before he hit the open market.  What won't make sense is if any team offers him 2M or more now that he's available to any team that wants him.

It’s a supply and demand thing.  Whether someone offers X amount of dollars is irrelevant.  The Os And their structure, could use his bat and his production.   Most teams don’t have that combo of at bats and money they can spend on a player with his skill set.  
 

The Os do...and the idea that other teams chose not to do it is irrelevant to his value to this organization.  The idea that they may be looking into Puig (conjecture) and brought on a LH DH type at REINFORCES the idea that this is salary driven, not producing driven imo.  
 

My only argument with this decision is that this isn’t solely or even largely driven by roster management despite what Elias says.  He is lying for management.

[ChosenOne21]

Just because a player is worth a certain amount of money according to WAR, doesn't mean teams are going to line up to pay a player that amount. A win is worth what, $8 or $9 million according to WAR? So according to that formula, Nunez is worth somewhere between $4 and $9 million.

But most teams don't pay players worth two wins or less anything near their market rate. Sure, there might be an exception or two, or someone might be worth two wins or less who's finishing out an expensive contract that was priced based on them being worth more wins than that.

Successful teams (without enormous budgets, and even then they still generally don't do this) pay free agent stars and superstars their market worth by WAR, and try to get the two win and under guys for dirt cheap to fill out the roster. This is what is meant by WAR not being linear. Guys like Renato Nunez aren't going to sign for anywhere from $4-$9 million, because it's not hard to stumble around in your farm system or on waivers and find guys for league minimum who have a good chance to be worth a similar amount.

All of MLB just passed on the opportunity to pay Nunez a $2-$3 million salary and control his rights for two more seasons after next for the cost of a waiver claim. I imagine if he signs with a team, it will be for less than that amount. You can talk until you're blue in the face about how the formula dictates he's worth that, but if no one is willing to pay a price because they can get the same thing for less money somewhere else, then it's asinine to insist that they should have paid him $2-$3 million

And come on. I don't think the Orioles are unique in their DH situation, and they've got a ton of corner outfielders and first basemen who need bats. We weren't the only team with "room" for him. Would they have kept him if they could have continued to pay him league minimum? Probably. What you're missing is that salary and production are two sides of the same coin. Yes, the Orioles cut Nunez because of money. Because his likely production was replaceable for less than $2-$3 million dollars

[Frobby]

36 minutes ago, ChosenOne21 said:

Just because a player is worth a certain amount of money according to WAR, doesn't mean teams are going to line up to pay a player that amount. A win is worth what, $8 or $9 million according to WAR? So according to that formula, Nunez is worth somewhere between $4 and $9 million.

But most teams don't pay players worth two wins or less anything near their market rate.

My quibble here is that the term “market rate” means what teams are willing to pay.    I’d say teams don’t pay these players their theoretical value.    But we mean the same thing.   

I don’t think the market is static.   Two players could have identical performance and demand could be higher or lower depending on circumstances.    Let’s say you have two players who each were worth 1.0 WAR.    One is a DH, the other is a middle infielder.    Those two players may have equal value hypothetically, but one could be in greater demand than the other depending on what’s available in the market.   A team that already has two DH types and a shortage of middle infielders is not going to be willing to pay the same amount for each player.     
 

[Sports Guy]

1 hour ago, ChosenOne21 said:

Just because a player is worth a certain amount of money according to WAR, doesn't mean teams are going to line up to pay a player that amount. A win is worth what, $8 or $9 million according to WAR? So according to that formula, Nunez is worth somewhere between $4 and $9 million.

But most teams don't pay players worth two wins or less anything near their market rate. Sure, there might be an exception or two, or someone might be worth two wins or less who's finishing out an expensive contract that was priced based on them being worth more wins than that.

Successful teams (without enormous budgets, and even then they still generally don't do this) pay free agent stars and superstars their market worth by WAR, and try to get the two win and under guys for dirt cheap to fill out the roster. This is what is meant by WAR not being linear. Guys like Renato Nunez aren't going to sign for anywhere from $4-$9 million, because it's not hard to stumble around in your farm system or on waivers and find guys for league minimum who have a good chance to be worth a similar amount.

All of MLB just passed on the opportunity to pay Nunez a $2-$3 million salary and control his rights for two more seasons after next for the cost of a waiver claim. I imagine if he signs with a team, it will be for less than that amount. You can talk until you're blue in the face about how the formula dictates he's worth that, but if no one is willing to pay a price because they can get the same thing for less money somewhere else, then it's asinine to insist that they should have paid him $2-$3 million

And come on. I don't think the Orioles are unique in their DH situation, and they've got a ton of corner outfielders and first basemen who need bats. We weren't the only team with "room" for him. Would they have kept him if they could have continued to pay him league minimum? Probably. What you're missing is that salary and production are two sides of the same coin. Yes, the Orioles cut Nunez because of money. Because his likely production was replaceable for less than $2-$3 million dollars

Of course no one is going to pay him 2+ million.  I would argue the Os didn’t need to either.

I would also argue that Nunez was worth more to the Os than other teams.  
 

The flaw in the arguments being made here are that you are looking at his worth around the league.  That’s completely irrelevant.  I’m not arguing that he’s a real valuable player.  I’m not arguing that teams are clamoring for him.  I never once said teams wanted him or he will be an easy trade candidate or anything remotely like that.  Everyone is completely misrepresenting that.

All I said was that his offensive production is worth that money for this team.  We have a boatload of question marks and very few answers to those questions and for that tiny amount of money, it was worth keeping him around.

The Os are, unquestionably, being cheap.  This is definitely a money thing and it shouldn’t be.  This is a team that less than 5 years ago spent 160M on payroll and now they may not spend 60M.  

[Can_of_corn]

7 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

Of course no one is going to pay him 2+ million.  I would argue the Os didn’t need to either.

I would also argue that Nunez was worth more to the Os than other teams.  
 

The flaw in the arguments being made here are that you are looking at his worth around the league.  That’s completely irrelevant.  I’m not arguing that he’s a real valuable player.  I’m not arguing that teams are clamoring for him.  I never once said teams wanted him or he will be an easy trade candidate or anything remotely like that.  Everyone is completely misrepresenting that.

All I said was that his offensive production is worth that money for this team.  We have a boatload of question marks and very few answers to those questions and for that tiny amount of money, it was worth keeping him around.

The Os are, unquestionably, being cheap.  This is definitely a money thing and it shouldn’t be.  This is a team that less than 5 years ago spent 160M on payroll and now they may not spend 60M.  

If no one is going to pay him 2+ million than he isn't worth 2+ million.

 

[wildcard]

35 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

Of course no one is going to pay him 2+ million.  I would argue the Os didn’t need to either.

I would also argue that Nunez was worth more to the Os than other teams.  
 

The flaw in the arguments being made here are that you are looking at his worth around the league.  That’s completely irrelevant.  I’m not arguing that he’s a real valuable player.  I’m not arguing that teams are clamoring for him.  I never once said teams wanted him or he will be an easy trade candidate or anything remotely like that.  Everyone is completely misrepresenting that.

All I said was that his offensive production is worth that money for this team.  We have a boatload of question marks and very few answers to those questions and for that tiny amount of money, it was worth keeping him around.

The Os are, unquestionably, being cheap.  This is definitely a money thing and it shouldn’t be.  This is a team that less than 5 years ago spent 160M on payroll and now they may not spend 60M.  

Here the guys that will play DH for the O's this year: (6) Mancini, Mountcastle,  Hays, Santander, Diaz and maybe Iglesias. All need at bats.  All are more valuable than Nunez.   Plus the O's have Stewart who is cheaper and if the other 6 are healthy may be in AAA.   

There is no place for Nunez to get enough at bats to be productive with those players on the roster.

[sportsfan8703]

Is the NL keeping the DH long term?  Will there be expanded rosters next year and beyond?  Nunez offers no versatility. 
 

The NL DH would help Nunez, but expanded rosters hurt him. Teams can piece together his offensive production with platoons.