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What are your expectations for Santander and Hays in 2021?

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3 minutes ago, owknows said:

I believe that you believe that.

But I also believe that THEY (the front office and ownership) believe that.

And that you and the front office can disagree as to what is best for the team.

And that this doesn't mean that the organization is "not trying to win" as you've stated many times previously.

It simply means that they have a strategy of their own that does not coincide with yours.

They are absolutely not trying to win.  There is no reasonable argument suggesting that they are.  
 

You can try to dress it up to sound as good as possible but winning is far from their top priority for 2021.

And again, nothing the organization is doing right now needs to be done while only winning 65-70 games.  They can do everything they are doing and still win 80+ games. 
 

Now, I agree that wanting them to try to win now needs to be done carefully and not irresponsibly. You don’t do it while harming the team long term.

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6 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

They are absolutely not trying to win.  There is no reasonable argument suggesting that they are.  
 

You can try to dress it up to sound as good as possible but winning is far from their top priority for 2021.

 

And this is where we depart from discussion into emotion.

You seem unable to consider the possibility that any strategy other than yours is reasonable.

And you suggest that you are capable of divining the motives of the owners and the front office.

And that you condemn their motives.

I don't see anything productive coming from that, so I'll leave it at that.

Edited by owknows
typo correction
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2 minutes ago, owknows said:

And this is where we depart from discussion into emotion.

You seem unable to consider the possibility that any strategy other than yours is reasonable.

And you suggest that you are capable of divining the motives of the owners and the front office.

And that you condemn their motives.

I don't see anything productive coming from that, so I'll leave it at that.

I'll also tack on that I don't believe that this franchise is sitting upon giant sums of money and is refusing to spend it.  I think they can spend more than they already are, for sure.  But how much more?   None of us really know and it's obnoxious to assume that it's WAAAAAY more just to fit a narrative because bashing ownership is a dead horse that we all love to beat.

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4 minutes ago, owknows said:

And this is where we depart from discussion into emotion.

You seem unable to consider the possibility that any strategy other than yours is reasonable.

And you suggest that you are capable of divining the motives of the owners and the front office.

And that you condemn their motives.

I don't see anything productive coming from that, so I'll leave it at that.

I think you are the one being emotional.  I find it funny that you seem to think I won’t consider other strategies yet you are doing the same thing.  You are saying that what they are doing or what you want them to do is the way to go.  I’m disagreeing with that.  So, me disagreeing is wrong and shows I don’t want to discuss it but yet you post this?  And I’m the one being emotional?  Lol. Got it.
 

And btw, it’s not the front office that I have any issue with.  Elias (and his group) is the best thing to happen to this organization in a few decades.

 

 

 

 

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4 minutes ago, Moose Milligan said:

I'll also tack on that I don't believe that this franchise is sitting upon giant sums of money and is refusing to spend it.  I think they can spend more than they already are, for sure.  But how much more?   None of us really know and it's obnoxious to assume that it's WAAAAAY more just to fit a narrative because bashing ownership is a dead horse that we all love to beat.

No one has said they should spend X amount more. 
 

However, we do know that they have recently spent 100M more than they are now, so it’s fair to say that they have a lot of payroll that they could add.  
 

I don’t need the payroll to be that high regardless of whether they are winning or not though.  It’s not about how much you spend, it’s how you spend it.

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11 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

I think you are the one being emotional.  I find it funny that you seem to think I won’t consider other strategies yet you are doing the same thing.  You are saying that what they are doing or what you want them to do is the way to go.  I’m disagreeing with that.  So, me disagreeing is wrong and shows I don’t want to discuss it but yet you post this?  And I’m the one being emotional?  Lol. Got it.
 

And btw, it’s not the front office that I have any issue with.  Elias (and his group) is the best thing to happen to this organization in a few decades.

 

 

 

 

Currently the O's are below average in starting pitching,  catching in the majors. 2B, 3B, closer.   You want them to be at least .500 in 2021.   What would you do if you were running the team?

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1 minute ago, Sports Guy said:

So, me disagreeing is wrong and shows I don’t want to discuss it but yet you post this?  And I’m the one being emotional?  Lol. Got it.
 

I did not say that you disagreeing is wrong.

I said that the way in which you choose to express your disagreement is wrong.

You presume unto yourself the ability to understand not only the actions of management and ownership, but their motivations. You state emphatically and repeatedly that "they do not want to win".

That is a dishonest tactic... You do not and cannot know that which you claim to know.

You can know what they do. You can know what they say. But you cannot read their hearts and minds. And to pretend that you can is dishonest and disingenuous. And worse yet, you pretend that anyone who might interpret their actions differently than you do is some kind of rube... "being duped".

Maybe you're not aware of how this is perceived by others, but it isn't positively.

I'm happy to discuss differences of opinion. And am happy to have someone who doesn't share my opinion. It makes for interesting discussion. I'm just asking you to restrain the things that turn discussion into conflict.

 

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1 minute ago, Sports Guy said:

No one has said they should spend X amount more. 
 

However, we do know that they have recently spent 100M more than they are now, so it’s fair to say that they have a lot of payroll that they could add.  
 

I don’t need the payroll to be that high regardless of whether they are winning or not though.  It’s not about how much you spend, it’s how you spend it.

Attendance has been down, perpetually in the bottom half of the league going back to 2006, except 2014 when they were 6th out of 15 and it's been abysmal for 2018 and 2019. 

Some people will scream "MASN money!!!!" but I'm also not sure how you can just say "it's fair to say" they have a lot of payroll they could add.  Again, no one has access to the books, no one knows for sure.

I am not sure how a team can sustain 120+  million in payroll for years on end when the attendance is where it is.  I'm too lazy to look and I also don't really care but I would be surprised to find a team that has a payroll in the range that you deem acceptable for the Orioles that has the attendance records that the Orioles do for a number of years in a row on end.

I agree that it's about how you spend it but I'm fine with the Orioles not spending it if Elias deems that whatever's out there isn't worth it.

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5 minutes ago, wildcard said:

Currently the O's are below average in starting pitching,  catching in the majors. 2B, 3B, Closer.   You want them to be at least .500 in 2021.   What would you do if you were running the team?

Well I have stated that I would definitely sign or trade for a back end of the pen guy.  I think it would be big for this team to have a top vet back there.  Now, im Not willing to go crazy and spend huge money(at least not huge money and long term..1-2 years I don’t mind) but I think there are some quality arms out there in FA and available in trades.

I had wanted Stroman but that’s obviously out unless you can trade for him and Cohen isnt exactly hurting for money, so that’s not likely.  But yes, I would add a starter.  FA/traded starter, Means, Cobb, Akin and Kremer is fine for me.  Flying under the disguise of rebuilding is what gets a guy like Lopez several starts when you already know he isn’t good.

Third base, as I have said, is a position I would trade for.  You have blocked prospects throughout the league that you likely could get.  I wouldn’t go after a Kris Bryant or spend stupid money on this position because of the players available.  (For example, I’m not spending on Justin Turner)  

Second is likely a similar scenario although I honestly haven’t really looked hard into second base.  I don’t mind Sanchez to be honest.  I like the idea of the really good defense there.  
 
So, I’m not talking going crazy here.  I’m not trying to block anyone.  But I do want to see an attempt at getting better.  I do want to see a better product.  I don’t want to continue to see players we know aren’t good get chance after chance.  We don’t need to see Lopez get 20 starts or Valaika get 300+ at bats.  We know what they are and they aren’t good.  
 

I think this team has a chance to have a pretty good overall pitching staff, good up the middle defense and with some development of the young players, they could be decent.  Also, health will be very important.

Also, I expect Diaz and Rutschman up this year.

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8 minutes ago, owknows said:

I did not say that you disagreeing is wrong.

I said that the way in which you choose to express your disagreement is wrong.

You presume unto yourself the ability to understand not only the actions of management and ownership, but their motivations. You state emphatically and repeatedly that "they do not want to win".

That is a dishonest tactic... You do not and cannot know that which you claim to know.

You can know what they do. You can know what they say. But you cannot read their hearts and minds. And to pretend that you can is dishonest and disingenuous. And worse yet, you pretend that anyone who might interpret their actions differently than you do is some kind of rube... "being duped".

Maybe you're not aware of how this is perceived by others, but it isn't positively.

I'm happy to discuss differences of opinion. And am happy to have someone who doesn't share my opinion. It makes for interesting discussion. I'm just asking you to restrain the things that turn discussion into conflict.

 

How you choose to read into what I’m saying means little to me.  Quite frankly, if you want to misinterpret what I am saying, that’s on you.  
 

That being said, I want to see an argument from you that the Orioles are out there trying their best to field a team that will win games in 2021.

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12 minutes ago, Moose Milligan said:

Attendance has been down, perpetually in the bottom half of the league going back to 2006, except 2014 when they were 6th out of 15 and it's been abysmal for 2018 and 2019. 

Some people will scream "MASN money!!!!" but I'm also not sure how you can just say "it's fair to say" they have a lot of payroll they could add.  Again, no one has access to the books, no one knows for sure.

I am not sure how a team can sustain 120+  million in payroll for years on end when the attendance is where it is.  I'm too lazy to look and I also don't really care but I would be surprised to find a team that has a payroll in the range that you deem acceptable for the Orioles that has the attendance records that the Orioles do for a number of years in a row on end.

I agree that it's about how you spend it but I'm fine with the Orioles not spending it if Elias deems that whatever's out there isn't worth it.

How did the Os spend 100-160M on payroll for basically 5 years with down attendance?

 

And btw, why was that attendance down to begin with?

Just to provide you an example..Seattle spent twice the money the Os did in 2019 and only had 400K more fans.  Now, I’m not asking for the team to spend 144 million like Seattle did but 80-100M?  Absolutely and if you don’t think they could handle that, you just aren’t paying attention.

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3 minutes ago, Moose Milligan said:

Was it sustainable? 

If they kept winning and were building the organization the right way?  Of course it was.  Why would it be sustainable for those 5 years but not beyond it?  They were able to do it because they were winning...they had more to spend. 
 

Now, they could probably spend it anyway but the increase in revenue is obviously huge for them.  That increase came from winning...just as the decrease comes with losing.

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12 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

How you choose to read into what I’m saying means little to me.  Quite frankly, if you want to misinterpret what I am saying, that’s on you.  
 

That being said, I want to see an argument from you that the Orioles are out there trying their best to field a team that will win games in 2021.

I'm not reading anything into what you're saying. You're saying it. Your words are out there for anyone who cares enough to read them. I'm offering you just a little advice. You may have noticed that you find yourself in conflict on this board. I'd suggest that maybe if you approached your discussions a little differently that wouldn't happen.

Two relatively modest suggestions...  Don't presume to know the motivations of others. And don't misrepresent the positions of others and then attack your misrepresentations. You'd find yourself in a lot fewer conflicts if you do. Just a suggestion. And I've spent far too much time of this matter already. And the longer I spend the preachier I sound..  I don't want to suggest I'm without faults... I'm clearly not.

As for the Orioles and whether they're trying to field the best team in 2021... have you considered the possibility that fielding the best team in 2021 isn't necessarily the compatible with fielding the best team in 2022, 2023, 2024, 2025,?

And that maybe ownership and management are more interested in sustainability?

Edited by owknows
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9 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

If they kept winning and were building the organization the right way?  Of course it was.  Why would it be sustainable for those 5 years but not beyond it?  They were able to do it because they were winning...they had more to spend. 
 

Now, they could probably spend it anyway but the increase in revenue is obviously huge for them.  That increase came from winning...just as the decrease comes with losing.

The MLBAM payments.

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