Davis vs. Davis

[Sports Guy]

2 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

Glenn Davis.

I'm not sure how much damage the Chris Davis contract has actually done to the franchise.

Assuming that Roch was right when he said the Davis money wouldn't have been spent elsewhere has having Davis on the team turned a playoff team into an also ran?

The 2016 team made the playoffs and Davis was pretty good.  In fact without Davis that team might not make the wildcard game.

Davis was bad but not terrible in 2017 and the team finished 12 games under 500.  I don't think replacing Davis with Cruz turns that into a playoff team.

Since then the team has been terrible and you could replace Davis with Trout and they would still be terrible.

Now maybe those early 90's teams don't go even without the Davis trade, but maybe they do. 

I know the current O's would still have to go through a rebuild even without the Davis contract weighing them down.

Yea I think it’s fair to say that no matter how awful these moves were that neither really hurt the team as bad as fans think.

I look at it as which decision was dumber when it was made and I go for Chris Davis every time.

[Roll Tide]

I feel like the lasting impact was the contract. A bad trade hurts for a while and if the team is any good at drafting and developing one bad trade doesn’t hurt much. The fact that the Orioles were so bad at it is the only reason it’s even a conversation.

[Can_of_corn]

5 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

Yea I think it’s fair to say that no matter how awful these moves were that neither really hurt the team as bad as fans think.

I look at it as which decision was dumber when it was made and I go for Chris Davis every time.

I'll agree it was the dumber decision.

[Can_of_corn]

3 minutes ago, Roll Tide said:

I feel like the lasting impact was the contract. A bad trade hurts for a while and if the team is any good at drafting and developing one bad trade doesn’t hurt much. The fact that the Orioles were so bad at it is the only reason it’s even a conversation.

But only if the money isn't being used elsewhere to improve the team. 

[Roll Tide]

3 hours ago, Moose Milligan said:

Thinking about it a little more:

The Orioles were not good when they traded for Glenn Davis.  They were coming off a 76 win 1990 season but there was some reason for optimism.  1989 had been great and with Ben McDonald and Mussina in the wings, there was some young talent to look forward to.  If they don't trade for Davis and keep Schilling, Finley and Harnisch, they might not be as bad in 1991.  And in 1992, they could have won more than the 89 games that they won.  The whole 1990s probably looks a lot different for this franchise, including the playoff years of 1996 and 1997.

I'm 50/50 on this one, honestly.  I can see it both ways.

I was 19 and most fans were pretty stoked until they realized we got fleeced. Still the worst trade ever for the Orioles. The lasting effect of the Davis contract will still be hurting the team long after his roster stay is complete. His deferred salary will still come out of the annual payroll for years. I hate those kind of contracts and if/when the team is sold I hope the new owner has it in the contract that the Angelos family escrows the money to resolve the debt out of their billions.

[Roll Tide]

2 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

But only if the money isn't being used elsewhere to improve the team. 

I’m not talking about now because I agree that what they do with it. I’m quite certain it prevented other stuff including extending Machado already. I remember being uptight about not resigning Davis’ but I hate those contracts now and for most teams they are extremely painful when the player fizzles out. 
 

 

[Can_of_corn]

3 minutes ago, Roll Tide said:

I’m not talking about now because I agree that what they do with it. I’m quite certain it prevented other stuff including extending Machado already. I remember being uptight about not resigning Davis’ but I hate those contracts now and for most teams they are extremely painful when the player fizzles out. 
 

 

I'm in the Manny wasn't getting extended anyway camp.

Honestly if the O's had extended Manny instead of Davis where would they be?

They would have traded him for a minor return is my guess. 

 

[Oriole1940]

I know most will say Chris Davis but some things cannot be measured  by cold hard dollars.  The Glenn Davis trade not only  was lopsided with the talent the Franchise gave up for him, but also the psychological damage it did to the fan base.  Glen Davis was to be the RH power hitter needed, it seemed like forever,  and was thought to be a sure thing, but was not to be.  I know I felt crushed for such a long time by how that turned out.  We all make mistakes and both of these situations were mistakes,  big time.                        

[Roll Tide]

3 minutes ago, Oriole1940 said:

I know most will say Chris Davis but some things cannot be measured  by cold hard dollars.  The Glenn Davis trade not only  was lopsided with the talent the Franchise gave up for him, but also the psychological damage it did to the fan base.  Glen Davis was to be the RH power hitter needed, it seemed like forever,  and was thought to be a sure thing, but was not to be.  I know I felt crushed for such a long time by how that turned out.  We all make mistakes and both of these situations were mistakes,  big time.                        

The bigger impact was the repercussions of the mistake internally. I feel like Angelos got gun shy in free agency after the Albert Belle deal. But with the Glenn Davis trade they gutted the depth of a team that had trouble developing talent.

As a kid after Cal Ripken there was Boddicker , Mussina, and a whole lot of disappointment in player drafting and development.

[DrungoHazewood]

4 hours ago, Moose Milligan said:

I don't think Schilling is a deranged lunatic.  He has some unpopular opinions that he does a poor job of expressing.  IMO, a deranged lunatic is someone who's dangerous to himself and others in society, I don't see Schilling being that guy.

That said, I'd gladly have whatever "stain" Schilling has over Davis.  I'd take 26 Ty Cobbs (cue @DrungoHazewood "He wasn't that bad of a guy!  The Al Stump book was lies!") on this team if it meant we would win.

Ty Cobb maybe wasn't a completely terrible person, or no worse than some of his peers.  But he wasn't exactly a great guy.  He did some things that got him relative slaps on the wrist that would probably have resulted in jail sentences today.

[ArtVanDelay]

6 hours ago, Sports Guy said:

No but it was short lived.  He didn’t really become the obvious HOF pitcher (it’s absurd he isn’t in) until his late 20s.

Finley was good but you don’t regret losing him or Harnisch.  
 

And let’s not forget, Glenn Davis was really good for several years before we got him.

Finley and Harnisch for Davis is kinda like Jones and Tillman for Bedard.  Do you think the Mariners regret that one?  And we were nice enough to throw in a Hall of Famer as well. 

[OrioleDog]

https://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/BAL/1991-transactions.shtml

The deal happened soon after Winter Break of my 12th grade year at City.  '90-'91 were my two Tarp Crew seasons in which I was paid to watch Orioles games.   It felt like trying to win the 2 out of 3 decider, and keep the Why Not magic going after the 1990 flicker.   The Class of '91 Orioles nuts were enthused, but holy cow did the bad start ruin any optimism so so so fast.

The next day Tettleton was dumped for Jeff Robinson, presumably as we needed to replace Harnisch/Schilling innings.  We did have Hoiles ascending then.   It's certainly pleasant to imagine Tettleton and the 3 ex-O's in the Ripken Supporting Cast once a few years of Camden revenues brought Palmeiro the 1st time and Alomar.   Could they have changed mid-90's Yankees/Indians eliminations?

The 5 years out thing is a little squishy because Camden was about to make us temporary Yankees.

I think Glenn worse by dint of talent v. money.   The worst part of Chris was the irreparable damage it did to retaining Machado for the statue run.  He would have had to persevere through 2018 like Ripken in 1988, but I think everyone significant but Yusniel and Kremer are here with Machado going towards his parallel to the Second Act of Ripken Good Teams coming in the next few years.

[Jagwar]

I had no idea that (according to Baseball Reference) the O's drafted Glenn Davis in June 1979 in the 31st round but he didn't sign. 

[Moose Milligan]

13 hours ago, Jagwar said:

I had no idea that (according to Baseball Reference) the O's drafted Glenn Davis in June 1979 in the 31st round but he didn't sign. 

The Orioles also drafted Dave Winfield in 1969 but he didn't sign, either.

[Frobby]

1 hour ago, Moose Milligan said:

The Orioles also drafted Dave Winfield in 1969 but he didn't sign, either.

Several other guys — Cliff Lee (1998) and Michael Young (1994) come to mind.