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Sheffield...Most underrated player of his generation?

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If Bonds never had the steroids acussations or been a ***** to the media, we would prolly be calling him the best player ever right now

I am not sure. Ruth's numbers are staggering also.

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Who else would be in the most underrated player of this generation category?

I'd think Biggio would be up there.

Rafael Palmerio immediately comes to mind. The steroid issue makes it easy to forget how impressive his career numbers were. Even before the controversy he was an offensive force for years, but made the all-star team only FOUR times! 3 Gold Gloves at 1B too.

All time he ranks:

Extra Base Hits (6th)

Home runs (10th)

RBI (12th)

TB (10th)

2B (15th)

Hits (23rd)

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Here's another guy who I think is very underrated: Kevin Brown. 106 WARP3, career ERA+ of 127. Which is the same as Bob Gibson, Seaver, and Smoltz. Better than Gossage, Schilling, Mussina, Feller, Marichal, Ruth, Drysdale, Cone, Fingers, Glavine, Peavy, Blylevin, Perry, Eckersley, and Carlton.

This is a guy who has a case to be a HOF'er, yet very few think of him that way, and he probably won't even get enough votes in his first year of eligibility to remain in the voting process.

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Rafael Palmerio immediately comes to mind. The steroid issue makes it easy to forget how impressive his career numbers were. Even before the controversy he was an offensive force for years, but made the all-star team only FOUR times! 3 Gold Gloves at 1B too.

All time he ranks:

Extra Base Hits (6th)

Home runs (10th)

RBI (12th)

TB (10th)

2B (15th)

Hits (23rd)

One of Palmeiro's gold gloves was "earned" when he played only 28 games at 1B.

As far as the offensive numbers go- there are so many players playing in this era that can't be properly judged right now, imo.

This era's offensive numbers are such that we need time to put them into historical context. We just went through the greatest historical offensive era to date.

Putting steroids aside for a minute, historically and looking at Palmeiro in isolation: he is a sure-fire HOFer.

But, when comparing him to his peers- his numbers aren't nearly as noteworthy. He was never voted in as a starter to the All Star game. He was always overshadowed by other hitters, even several others at his own position. He also never led the league in HR's.

Comparing today's hitters to the hitters of the 30's-70's is as fair as holding today's pitchers to the standards of the Cy Young, Walter Johnson, etc...

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Here's another guy who I think is very underrated: Kevin Brown. 106 WARP3, career ERA+ of 127. Which is the same as Bob Gibson, Seaver, and Smoltz. Better than Gossage, Schilling, Mussina, Feller, Marichal, Ruth, Drysdale, Cone, Fingers, Glavine, Peavy, Blylevin, Perry, Eckersley, and Carlton.

This is a guy who has a case to be a HOF'er, yet very few think of him that way, and he probably won't even get enough votes in his first year of eligibility to remain in the voting process.

Kevin Brown ?

No way. Staying healthy is a skill he was horrible at.

He was very good for a while. But, I wouldn't say he is underrated or hall worthy.

Any statistical creation that puts him as an equal to Seaver or GIbson, and better than Feller, Marichal, Carlton- is highly suspect.

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This era's offensive numbers are such that we need time to put them into historical context. We just went through the greatest historical offensive era to date.

AL, 1993-2007 scored 5.10125 runs/game

AL, 1930-1939 score 5.248 runs/game

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Kevin Brown ?

No way. Staying healthy is a skill he was horrible at.

He was very good for a while. But, I wouldn't say he is underrated or hall worthy.

Any statistical creation that puts him as an equal to Seaver or GIbson, and better than Feller, Marichal, Carlton- is highly suspect.

He had 13 seasons with at least 170 innings, 9 of them with at least 210 innings, 7 of those with at least 230 innings, and 3 with 250 innings. He has more innings pitched than Schilling, Whitey Ford, Hershiser, and many HOF'ers, he's in the top 100 all time in that category.

ERA+ is not a flawed stat, especially when considering a whole career, which should pretty much even out luck for those who are concerned with that.

Brown also has a higher WARP3 than one Jim Palmer.

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AL, 1993-2007 scored 5.10125 runs/game

AL, 1930-1939 score 5.248 runs/game

But what about Home Run output and SLG pct's ?

They have risen steadily since the early 1900's.

There were 6 HR's hit per 500 PA in 1930.

In 2004, there were 14 HR's hit per 500 PA.

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He had 13 seasons with at least 170 innings, 9 of them with at least 210 innings, 7 of those with at least 230 innings, and 3 with 250 innings. He has more innings pitched than Schilling, Whitey Ford, Hershiser, and many HOF'ers, he's in the top 100 all time in that category.

ERA+ is not a flawed stat, especially when considering a whole career, which should pretty much even out luck for those who are concerned with that.

Brown also has a higher WARP3 than one Jim Palmer.

Kevin Brown is underrated, I'd agree. As good as Jim Palmer? Sorry, but no. In this case, WARP3 is warped.

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But what about Home Run output and SLG pct's ?

They have risen steadily since the early 1900's.

There were 6 HR's hit per 500 PA in 1930.

In 2004, there were 14 HR's hit per 500 PA.

Home runs are up from 1930(smaller parks, lighter bats, more power conscious approach, juiced balls, juiced players, etc), but offensive levels have been higher and may be higher in the future. The American League hit .289/.363/.421 in 1936. That looks like a Nick Markakis line.

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He was never voted in as a starter to the All Star game. He was always overshadowed by other hitters, even several others at his own position. He also never led the league in HR's.

QUOTE]

Based on this information, I'd say that you agree with me that he was underrated. He was as consistently good, or better than a majority of the players in any era, steroids or not.

I certainly wouldn't consider him over-rated. He was never considered great but he ended up with 3,000 and 500 and hardly anyone noticed. Who is Rafael Palmeiro--Joe Fan probably wouldn't have a clue.

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Kevin Brown is underrated, I'd agree. As good as Jim Palmer? Sorry, but no. In this case, WARP3 is warped.

I didn't say he was better than Palmer.

What, no response 66-70-83?

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While 66-70-83 thinks of a retort, I'll throw out another guy that I think is underrated by many: Pedro Martinez.

Best career ERA+, and by a decent margin, also has the best single season ERA+ besides Tim Keefe's 1880 season. He's an all time great pitcher, easily better than guys such as Ryan and Koufax imo, but besides the stat guys and some hard core fans, I don't think he's considered to be in that upper echelon.

BTW, this era has really been amazing as far as top tier HOF's.

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Kevin Brown is underrated, I'd agree. As good as Jim Palmer? Sorry, but no. In this case, WARP3 is warped.

Good thing you don't need WARP to make such an argument.

Its so much closer than people would intially suspect. Palmer had a *much* better defense over the course of his career and in 700 more career innings, had a 125 ERA+ compared to KB's 127 ERA+.

KB's 1996-2000 is one of the best 5 year pitching peaks of all time.

How quick we forget 1996.

233 IP, 8 Hrs, 33 walks, 159 Ks, 1.89 ERA, 214 ERA+

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