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When will we ever have starting pitching?

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1 hour ago, Moose Milligan said:

Why, so our outfielders have to run farther into the gaps and make longer throws back to the infield?

OPACY dimensions are just fine.  Keep in mind the fences moving back would work against our hitters, too.  

Keep running out lousy pitching in a ball park built for hitting, in an era begging for offense, in the AL east. Yikes!

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When will we ever have starting pitching?

How about 50 years ago?

Mike Cuellar, Pat Dobson, Dave McNally, and Jim Palmer all started and won 20 or more games.

Nobody has had starting pitching like that in the five decades since.

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As long as we play in this tiny bandbox stadium we won't attract any pitching and any pitching we develop will leave 1st chance.  Only an extreme ground ball pitcher has a chance.  

The most dominant ground ball pitcher was available  last year.  Modzeliak ? from South Carolina.  They took Westburg.  I think.  By the time they chose Haskin the pitcher was gone.  Last time I looked he is lights out in High-A.

Just saying he was a right handed Zach Brittton type.  Exactly the type that can succeed here.

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16 hours ago, Finisher said:

Love how everyone just assumes Hall and Rodriguez will be quality starters for us.

I don’t think people assume that at all. I actually feel like people have their guard up on them a little because we’ve had trouble developing pitchers. At this point they are just prospects. Both could be quality or both could fail miserably. You have to be a little excited to add them to the rotation though. 

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1 hour ago, eddie83 said:

From Hyde today. 
 

 

I was about to post on this  very topic.  That plus a ballpark designed for hitting.  Yes, our team gets to hit in the park also, but other teams usually have much better pitching, so it a Net Big Time Loss having such  a bandbox to play in.  And yes,  I know over the years it is treated as a Fatal Sin on the board,  to mention the size of the park, but facts are facts.  

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21 hours ago, waynebug said:

As long as we play in this tiny bandbox stadium we won't attract any pitching and any pitching we develop will leave 1st chance.  Only an extreme ground ball pitcher has a chance.  

The most dominant ground ball pitcher was available  last year.  Modzeliak ? from South Carolina.  They took Westburg.  I think.  By the time they chose Haskin the pitcher was gone.  Last time I looked he is lights out in High-A.

Just saying he was a right handed Zach Brittton type.  Exactly the type that can succeed here.

It was fun to watch Brad Bergesen get hitters to hit one grounder after another, especially the DPs.

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On 7/10/2021 at 6:17 PM, Moose Milligan said:

.   .   .

OPACY dimensions are just fine.  Keep in mind the fences moving back would work against our hitters, too.  

Here’s a theory about one source of the problem, from Bill James. To succeed, a young pitcher needs self-confidence. But when teams that play in homer-friendly or high-run-producing parks promote pitching prospects to the major leagues, most of them will give up a lot of runs (especially via the home run, some of which result when quality pitches they’re used to seeing end up as routine fly balls sail over the short fences). As a result, they will have a hard time developing and maintaining confidence in their own ability to succeed. James wrote this explaining why he had thought and frequently had written, back in the 1980s, that teams in pitching-friendly ballparks had an advantage:

“It is very hard to build a pitching staff in Coors Field, because it's hard to build confidence in a young pitcher there. Like it or not, pitchers are judged by how many runs they allow. If a young pitcher, uncertain of what he can do, gives up 5 runs in 4 innings, it's a setback. He doesn't feel like he can work in the zone without getting beat up.  He starts to nibble, loses the plate, gets to be afraid to throw his fastball.”   

James noted that he had not revisited the issue in decades, but to me it still explains a lot. That may be why the Rockies have not been able to develop successful young pitchers. Same with the Reds. The Red Sox have been plagued for decades by shortages of homegrown pitching talent, and the NYYs in remodeled and then rebuilt Yankee Stadium have had the same problem, especially with right-handed pitching. Many of the RS’s and NYYs’ top pitchers have been experienced, and in many cases very expensive, free agents and trade targets who have developed their confidence elsewhere, from Catfish Hunter to Gerrit Cole and from Luis Tiant to Chris Sale. Sure, there are exceptions, though most of the NYYs’ are lefties.

You might say that this isn’t much of a problem, since teams like the Orioles have an advantage in developing power hitters that balances out the disadvantage for home-grown pitching prospects. It probably doesn’t work that way, as James points out:

“Of course, somebody will say ‘Why doesn't a pitcher's park interfere with the confidence of the hitter in the same way?’, but it's not a symmetrical problem.  Pitching is not just hitting in a mirror; it's a different process.”  

I can see that a slugger who comes up with a team in a pitcher-friendly park will face some challenges: balls he thinks should be home runs will end up as fly outs. But some of them will become doubles, and he can adjust his stroke, to try to get more hits or to pull the ball down the foul line. He can, and in most cases will, get stronger as he hits his mid-20s and takes advantage of strength enhancement programs (the legal ones). It’s just not a problem of the same magnitude.

 So where does this leave the Orioles? The avenue of signing acquiring premier pitching talent is probably closed to them. That factor, the lack of access to top-level international talent and the problem of introducing homegrown pitchers to the majors at Camden Yards may explain a big chunk of the Orioles’ continuing problem with young pitchers. I would theorize that it takes a certain kind of pitcher – extremely talented and full of confidence that’s hard to shake – to succeed with teams like the post-1991 Orioles. That sounds to me like Mike Mussina (who got in a partial season at Memorial Stadium), and maybe Erik Bedard. Zach Britton found a way around Camden Yards’ challenge with his sinker. The confidence factor may be a part of the reason why Orioles pitching prospects show flashes of brilliance but don’t put it all together until they move to a pitcher-friendlier environment.

Maybe Elias is all over this, and the Orioles have studied this outside and out. If so, it may have figured in the team’s recent amateur draft decisions, and it may influence decisions about when to expose top prospects to pitching at Camden Yards. Who knows? I just hope the Orioles have thought this issue through and have a good handle on whether it’s a real or I imagined problem, and how to respond to it if it does seem real.

What I’d really like to see is serious consideration to making Camden Yards a more neutral ballpark, less because that would benefit the Orioles since I don’t know whether it would, and more because it would make both offenses, and the games, more fun to watch.

 

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The old St. Louis Cardinals in the '80s built their team around a big ballpark with line drive, gap hitters and speed so moving the fences out can benefit the club if they get the right kind of hitters. It sure seems like that's what Elias was focused on in this draft so we'll see if they make the move with the fences. 

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