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41 minutes ago, Philip said:

Jonathan Villar is an excellent example of who the best of our guys are. He was a good-and cheap-player on the Astros when they sucked. When they got better he wasn’t good enough so they shipped him to Milwaukee. He was adequate-and still cheap- for the Brewers, but when they got better they dumped him on us and he was no longer cheap.

these players will never be part of a good team because they aren’t good.

So good teams only have good players?  No good team could have a career 13.2 rWAR player like Villar?    Good teams only have consistent players who play good defense?

Thanks, I’ll be sure to tell Dan Duquette that Delmon Young had no place on the 2014 Orioles.   

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18 minutes ago, Frobby said:

So good teams only have good players?  No good team could have a career 13.2 rWAR player like Villar?    Good teams only have consistent players who play good defense?

Thanks, I’ll be sure to tell Dan Duquette that Delmon Young had no place on the 2014 Orioles.   

Come on, Frobby, sarcasm looks bad on you. Double aside, Delmon was for the Orioles what he was for everyone else, and has been out of baseball since the 81 win Orioles released him in 2015. And he only re-signed with the Os for 2015( for a comparative pittance) after nobody else had interest. And he was only 29 at the time(yes his behavior has played a role in that but do you think that would matter if he were a better player?)

But Young is irrelevant to this discussion. I used Villar as an example of a flawed player who is useful to a bad team but discarded when the team improves enough that he is a liability. His transaction history certainly beats that out. 
The guys mentioned in the comment to which I replied are exactly that and none of them will be on the next .500 team.

edit: You mentioned Villar’s career WAR. Young’s career WAR is 3.2.

Edited by Philip

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11 minutes ago, Philip said:

Come on, Frobby, sarcasm looks bad on you. Double aside, Delmon was for the Orioles what he was for everyone else, and has been out of baseball since the 81 win Orioles released him in 2015. And he only re-signed with the Os for 2015( for a comparative pittance) after nobody else had interest. And he was only 29 at the time(yes his behavior has played a role in that but do you think that would matter if he were a better player?)

But Young is irrelevant to this discussion. I used Villar as an example of a flawed player who is useful to a bad team but discarded when the team improves enough that he is a liability. His transaction history certainly beats that out. 
The guys mentioned in the comment to which I replied are exactly that and none of them will be on the next .500 team.

edit: You mentioned Villar’s career WAR. Young’s career WAR is 3.2.

Yes, Villar has a value of 13.2 rWAR.   That’s a pretty decent player.  He debuted in 2013.   230 players debuted that year.   Among them, Villar ranks 23rd in rWAR.  Top 10% of all players who debuted that year.

Rich Dauer was a 14.4 rWAR player who spent his entire career playing for one team that was a perennial contender while he was there.    So, good teams can have flawed players on them.   They just have to fit in with the team’s needs.  Dauer was worth 0.2 rWAR the year the O’s won the World Series.

Now, I don’t mean to imply that Dauer and Villar are the same type of player.   Dauer had a more consistent career, Villar has been a bit up and down.   I just think you’re wrong if you think that good teams don’t have (and often keep) players of that general caliber.

 

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35 minutes ago, Philip said:

Come on, Frobby, sarcasm looks bad on you. Double aside, Delmon was for the Orioles what he was for everyone else, and has been out of baseball since the 81 win Orioles released him in 2015. And he only re-signed with the Os for 2015( for a comparative pittance) after nobody else had interest. And he was only 29 at the time(yes his behavior has played a role in that but do you think that would matter if he were a better player?)

But Young is irrelevant to this discussion. I used Villar as an example of a flawed player who is useful to a bad team but discarded when the team improves enough that he is a liability. His transaction history certainly beats that out. 
The guys mentioned in the comment to which I replied are exactly that and none of them will be on the next .500 team.

edit: You mentioned Villar’s career WAR. Young’s career WAR is 3.2.

You don’t really seem to understand how sports teams are put together.

Lots of players on contending teams are extremely flawed and have been since the beginning of time.

And that includes being terrible defensively.

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1 minute ago, Sports Guy said:

You don’t really seem to understand how sports teams are put together.

Lots of players on contending teams are extremely flawed and have been since the beginning of time.

And that includes being terrible defensively.

Most players are flawed, outside of a true 5 tool talent like Trout.  None of these guys are good at absolutely everything.  

@Philip, I hope you understand this.  

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1 hour ago, Philip said:

Jonathan Villar is an excellent example of who the best of our guys are. He was a good-and cheap-player on the Astros when they sucked. When they got better he wasn’t good enough so they shipped him to Milwaukee. He was adequate-and still cheap- for the Brewers, but when they got better they dumped him on us and he was no longer cheap.

these players will never be part of a good team because they aren’t good.

I don't think that's fair to say. Villar isn't the greatest player in the world - but he's versatile, has speed, decent with the bat, and doesn't break the bank. He moves around so much because teams are interested in him. The Jays traded for him last year during their playoff push. The Mets signed him this year and had every intention of being contenders.

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35 minutes ago, Frobby said:

Yes, Villar has a value of 13.2 rWAR.   That’s a pretty decent player.  He debuted in 2013.   230 players debuted that year.   Among them, Villar ranks 23rd in rWAR.  Top 10% of all players who debuted that year.

Rich Dauer was a 14.4 rWAR player who spent his entire career playing for one team that was a perennial contender while he was there.    So, good teams can have flawed players on them.   They just have to fit in with the team’s needs.  Dauer was worth 0.2 rWAR the year the O’s won the World Series.

Now, I don’t mean to imply that Dauer and Villar are the same type of player.   Dauer had a more consistent career, Villar has been a bit up and down.   I just think you’re wrong if you think that good teams don’t have (and often keep) players of that general caliber.

 

Yes, I don’t deny that, but good teams keep limited players who have one outstanding feature. I think McKenna might very well have a spot on our next reasonably good team because he’s outstanding on defense and very very fast. So he could pinch run or be a late ending replacement. Endy Chavez can’t hit a lick, but he was useful for a long time.

I’m not going to comment on Villar anymore, Except to stand by my point. he’s gone,He was incredibly inconsistent while he was here, and there is a reason he keeps bouncing from team to team. As far as the guys mentioned Yes I think none of them will be here when we are good.

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31 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

You don’t really seem to understand how sports teams are put together.

Lots of players on contending teams are extremely flawed and have been since the beginning of time.

And that includes being terrible defensively.

So? I don’t deny that, but Villar’s transaction history supports my contention, and Frobby  mentioned Delmon Young, and HIS transaction history also supports my contention, but my comment was actually about the pitchers that were mentioned, All of whom are flawed or mediocre, and I cheerfully stand by my contention that none of them will be here when we are a good team again.

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4 minutes ago, Philip said:

So? I don’t deny that, but Villar’s transaction history supports my contention, and Frobby  mentioned Delmon Young, and HIS transaction history also supports my contention, but my comment was actually about the pitchers that were mentioned, All of whom are flawed or mediocre, and I cheerfully stand by my contention that none of them will be here when we are a good team again.

So, your contention is that players who are all around more valuable stay in the majors longer?  Wow, way to go out on a limb there.

Next thing you will say is that water is wet.

BTw, Young had a long career and while certain guys on the roster now may not be the exact players we have on the next contender, there will be guys like them on the team, just as pretty much every contender has.

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3 hours ago, Philip said:

Jonathan Villar is an excellent example of who the best of our guys are. He was a good-and cheap-player on the Astros when they sucked. When they got better he wasn’t good enough so they shipped him to Milwaukee. He was adequate-and still cheap- for the Brewers, but when they got better they dumped him on us and he was no longer cheap.

these players will never be part of a good team because they aren’t good.

I'm not going to add another mound of statistics to show how wrong you are about Villar. I'll just say that all the Mets fans that were Meh about him and disagreed with me in the spring about how good an acquisition he was for them have all had to eat crow. He has saved their infield throughout this season not only by filling in at second and then at third and now at SS when McNeil, Davis, Guillorme, and Lindor all fell out, but now has the fourth most AB's on the team and their third best OPS+. He either leads off or bats in the middle of the lineup. A guy who stole 62 bases for the Brewers and played in all 162 games for the 2019 O's and quickly became my favorite player and I wish we could have afforded to keep is not someone you just dump when it's time to contend, as the Mets have learned.

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1 hour ago, Philip said:

Yes, I don’t deny that, but good teams keep limited players who have one outstanding feature. I think McKenna might very well have a spot on our next reasonably good team because he’s outstanding on defense and very very fast. So he could pinch run or be a late ending replacement. Endy Chavez can’t hit a lick, but he was useful for a long time.

I’m not going to comment on Villar anymore, Except to stand by my point. he’s gone,He was incredibly inconsistent while he was here, and there is a reason he keeps bouncing from team to team. As far as the guys mentioned Yes I think none of them will be here when we are good.

Villar was not "incredibly inconsistent"--go to the splits on Baseball Reference and see that he was well within the normal oscillations of the long season. Power, speed, position versatility, good spirit, and switch-hitting: yeah, a lot of teams have wanted him to provide that for them.

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7 hours ago, Philip said:

So? I don’t deny that, but Villar’s transaction history supports my contention, and Frobby  mentioned Delmon Young, and HIS transaction history also supports my contention, but my comment was actually about the pitchers that were mentioned, All of whom are flawed or mediocre, and I cheerfully stand by my contention that none of them will be here when we are a good team again.

Delmon Young was a phenomenal pinchhitter for us and had well earned a reputation as a steller clutch and post-season player with several teams. A record he added to with the Os. You're flailing around looking for examples for a weak theory. The idea of putting the current O's poor pitching on the level of a Villar or Young is preposterous.

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1 hour ago, Philip said:

So? I don’t deny that, but Villar’s transaction history supports my contention, and Frobby  mentioned Delmon Young, and HIS transaction history also supports my contention, but my comment was actually about the pitchers that were mentioned, All of whom are flawed or mediocre, and I cheerfully stand by my contention that none of them will be here when we are a good team again.

I guess Nelson Cruz's transaction history and Rich Hill's and numerous others all show that they are useless to teams in contention.

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2 hours ago, Sports Guy said:

So, your contention is that players who are all around more valuable stay in the majors longer?  Wow, way to go out on a limb there.

Next thing you will say is that water is wet.

BTw, Young had a long career and while certain guys on the roster now may not be the exact players we have on the next contender, there will be guys like them on the team, just as pretty much every contender has.

Delmon Young had a career of nine years and 3.2 WAR.
I don’t know why you’re being so contentious, I’m not saying anything controversial when I say that the pitchers that were mentioned will not be a part of our next good team. If you want to disagree with that, fine go ahead.

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1 hour ago, LA2 said:

Villar was not "incredibly inconsistent"--go to the splits on Baseball Reference and see that he was well within the normal oscillations of the long season. Power, speed, position versatility, good spirit, and switch-hitting: yeah, a lot of teams have wanted him to provide that for them.

Yawn…

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