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Big Ben vs everyone else

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Well said, I couldn't agree more. There is no "stat" for the way that he evades tacklers and avoids sacks... and to add on, turns said plays into big yardage on an almost dependable routine basis.

Can you imagine how many times Ben would have been sacked this year if it weren't for his ability?

A lot of that is because he often holds onto the ball too long, which produces more sacks, fumbles, and picks than he'd have if he would get rid of it quicker. So while I agree that he is very elusive back there, there is a downside to his style as well.

To answer your last question, the answer would be less if he threw the ball quicker.

Edited by mweb08

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I wonder if Ben would be able to put up the numbers in AZ or NO's system as they do and if he'd be able to win in that type of offense.

Let's look at Flacco....He's been asked to manage the game all year but you know what, you can watch him and know that he can basically make any throw and would be able to play in a high-tempo offense with the weapons around him.

Could Ben do that? If yes, then he's #1 on the list because he could win either way. Brees and Warner might look good in their offenses and put up the stats but no way I'm taking either of those guys over Ben if I am running a Pitt or Baltimore offense.

Pitt's offense has evolved from a run heavy one where the QB manages the game though.

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Yeah, but it's still not a very high-octane, risk taking offense. Warner and Brees have to win their teams the game. They have the vision, arm, and weapons to do that.

My thing is..if you give Ben the weapons, and the need to win the game, can he do it?

Put it this way...you mentioned Warner and Brees I believe.

I like my chances with Ben on Arizona or NO as far as winning games for his team than I do Brees or Warner in Pitt. If he ever has that kind of team and he is mistake-prone and can't handle it, then I would agree that those 2 guys and those like them should be taken over Ben.

I'm not sure Brees or Rivers for instance really had better weapons than Ben this year, they also doesn't have stronger arms. Ben also takes plenty of risks, hence the high amount of turnovers compared to the amount of attempts.

I'm not sure why you think Ben would do better than Brees on the Saints due to what I just said, same with the mistake prone part, because he's already mistake prone. I'm not sure Ben would do well in the Cards offense either since they prefer to throw the ball much more quickly than Ben typically does. He's also have no running game to help him out.

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Every time I hear someone say something like "It doesn't matter how he played because he won the game in the end" I think back to Steve McNair in 2006.

There were several games where McNair completely stunk for three quarters, and even most of the fourth, before leading a last-minute drive. Then people would say that and it would infuriate me, because if he was any good, he would have performed better for the rest of the game and we wouldn't have been in the situation in the first place!

I'm not saying it completely applies to Roethlisberger, but when you hear people mention that his stats don't matter because he wasn't very good for 58 minutes but was great for two, it really makes my head hurt.

Hopefully he's either going to move beyond having people say that or regress to the point of irrelevance just so I never have to hear it again.

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A lot of that is because he often holds onto the ball too long, which produces more sacks, fumbles, and picks than he'd have if he would get rid of it quicker. So while I agree that he is very elusive back there, there is a downside to the his style as well.

To answer your last question, the answer would be less if he threw the ball quicker.

He also has a terrible O-line.

Bottom line is he wins...You can take the QBs that put up the stats and I will take the ones that actually win games.

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I'd also like to think that sooner or later, it will catch up with Ben. Sooner or later he's going to start faltering on these last minute drives... or the defense isn't going to hand him the ball with a lead or a small deficit at the end of the game.

But until then, stats are out the window when it comes to Ben. He wins games, and that is all that matters in the end.

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He also has a terrible O-line.

Bottom line is he wins...You can take the QBs that put up the stats and I will take the ones that actually win games.

It really can't be said enough how terrible his offensive line is. He takes crap for holding the ball, but look at how many sacks he avoids and turns into great plays.

This is probably the worst offensive line to ever win a SB. What were they, 29th in rushing YPC and gave up like 50 sacks? Not to mention they were the worst team in the entire NFL on 3rd and 1. Just ridiculous. Go back and watch how Darnell Stapleton was just getting abused by Dockett, or how embarrassingly bad Chris Kemoeatu looked at times. Willie Colon as a starting tackle, really? They're an absolute joke, they do nothing well.

And yet, in the SB Roethlisberger was literally perfect against the blitz, he didn't have one single incompletion when the Cardinals brought five or more rushers. And that's with his best wideout basically being of little use with an obviously still bum knee. I give credit to Ward for going out there, but if this happens during the regular season he probably sits a month.

And that drive and the pass and catch to Holmes are both legendary stuff.

Edited by Echoes

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He also has a terrible O-line.

Bottom line is he wins...You can take the QBs that put up the stats and I will take the ones that actually win games.

And if you take that QB and put him on a team with a lesser defense, you'll find out the flaw in your thinking.

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It really can't be said enough how terrible his offensive line is. He takes crap for holding the ball, but look at how many sacks he avoids and turns into great plays.

This is probably the worst offensive line to ever win a SB. What were they, 29th in rushing YPC and gave up like 50 sacks? Not to mention they were the worst team in the entire NFL on 3rd and 1. Just ridiculous. Go back and watch how Darnell Stapleton was just getting abused by Dockett, or how embarrassingly bad Chris Kemoeatu looked at times. Willie Colon as a starting tackle, really? They're an absolute joke, they do nothing well.

And yet, in the SB Roethlisberger was literally perfect against the blitz, he didn't have one single incompletion when the Cardinals brought five or more rushers. And that's with his best wideout basically being of little use with an obviously still bum knee. I give credit to Ward for going out there, but if this happens during the regular season he probably sits a month.

And that drive and the pass and catch to Holmes are both legendary stuff.

Well put. A perfect example of this was in the AFC Championship. Pittsburgh has the ball on their own 37 with 7 and a half minutes to go, 3rd and 14. Baltimore only rushes three and Suggs comes untouched around the left tackle and blows the play up almost immediately. They even left Carey Davis and Heath Miller in to block. On top of that, Baltimore didn't even try to disguise their rush. 7 people to block 3, and the play lasted about 5 seconds. It's incredible they won the Super Bowl with that atrocious line, but it goes to show how impressive Roethlisberger's ability is to extend plays.

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I would take Tom Brady over Ben. But I don't think I would take anybody else. Here is a brief rundown about how I view some of the "elite" qb that would be in the discussion.

- Brady: Like I said, he is my number 1 choice. Funny thing though, I was never really a believer after some of his early success. I kind of viewed their 2001 Super Bowl as a fluke, and I definitely didn't think Brady really performed that well in those playoffs. First there was the "tuck rule" against Oakland. Then it was Bledsoe who came in for an injured Brady and led them to a win against Pitt. And he didn't really do much in the Super Bowl. The defense won that game and he completed a few dump off passes to set up a game winning fg at the end.

But he made me a believer afterwards. They usually haven't had much of a running game. He made Deion Branch and David Givens look pretty good. (Look at what those guys have accomplished since leaving NE.) And you just can't go to 4 Super Bowls and win 3 without having a great qb.

- Roethlisberger: Aside from Brady, who's done more in their first 5 years? The guy has two rings, been to 3 AFCCGs, and is 8-2 in the playoffs. He has more wins in his first five years of any qb ever. He played behind an offensive line that was one of the worst in the league this year. Ward is overrated at this point in his career. People knock him for his Super Bowl performance against Seattle, but he was money in the AFC playoffs that year. And with regards to the Super Bowl, he was the youngest or 2nd youngest qb ever to start in the Super Bowl. Of course, he was going to be nervous. And he's led his team to comeback victories many times. We saw what he's done against the Ravens.

And to get an idea of how young Roethlisberger still is, he's less than 3 years older than Flacco. As much as Flacco accomplished this year, how likely is it that he's going to win two rings over his next 3 years?

- Peyton Manning: I posted in another thread a month ago how I thought he was overrated. He has a losing record in the playoffs. He has played with a young Edge, Marvin Harrison and Reggie Wayne etc., but his offenses have often been shut down in the playoffs.

- Brees: The guy puts up numbers. But he also plays in a dome. Look at his "splits" on the road. His numbers are far less impressive. And remember that he was still in SD in his 5th year. If you look at his first 5 years and compare those to Ben's, it's not even comparable.

- Mcnabb: I fault the Eagles FO for never giving him a good running game. Westbrook is a nice player, but he has often been injury prone and is more of a pass catching threat than a running threat. He's also rarely had above average wr. Remember, he was sometimes throwing to Todd Pinkston and James Thrash. But one thing I do hold against Mcnabb. I rarely see him lead his team to a comeback victory late in the game.

- Romo: Please. The guy fumbles way too many times and/or throws picks at the worst times. Look at the Ravens game earlier this year. He should have just managed the game after they were leading 7-0. But his mistakes eventually let the Ravens back into the game by half time. He threw the pick 6 at the end of the game against Pittsburgh. He threw the pick right before halftime against Phi that allowed Phi to start pulling away. He couldn't get it done in the playoffs against NY last season when they were missing a couple of cornerbacks. And so on and so on and ...

- Rivers: Not enough of a sample size yet IMO. I guess he could be great. But he hasn't really made his mark yet if you ask me. He had the 1 standout win against Indy last year and came back gamely to face NE in the AFCCG. But he hasn't really done much else in the playoffs.

- Eli Manning: Good qb, but he gets a lot of help. Great defense, great running game, very good offensive line. I admit that he didn't have a stellar group of wr after Burress shot himself. I'd still like to see how he does over the next couple of years before making any final judgement.

- Warner: They guy has come up big in the playoffs, no doubt. But whenever he was good, look at the weapons he had. With the Rams, he had Bruce, Holt and Faulk. This year he had Fitz and Boldin. What happened in between when he played with ordinary wr? He was a journeyman back up in between. He's also turnover prone. I've noticed that a lot of people said he played really well in this Super Bowl. Really? Sure, he put up 377 yards and led the Cardinals temporary comeback. But he threw that pick 6 just before halftime. He fumbled the ball at the end of the game. He was lucky another fumble was overturned in the first half. Look at how often Roethlisberger gets sacked. But he rarely fumbles in those situations, and definitely hasn't in the playoffs.

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A bit surprised no one here has mentioned Carson Palmer. He's been a bit injury prone, but he's still pretty young and if he ever gets a defense and a running game like Eli, Ben and Brady (albeit to a lesser degree as far a running game for Brady) have had the benefit of he is certainly capable of winning Super Bowls

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A bit surprised no one here has mentioned Carson Palmer. He's been a bit injury prone' date=' but he's still pretty young and if he ever gets a defense and a running game like Eli, Ben and Brady (albeit to a lesser degree as far a running game for Brady) have had the benefit of he is certainly capable of winning Super Bowls[/quote']

He's going to have to get out of Cincy for that to happen.

It really does amaze me how much luck comes into play when we decide who the greats are. Someone like Palmer could be every bit as "great" as Manning or Brady if he was picked by either of those teams in the draft. But he gets picked by one of the most dysfunctional organizations in the NFL and will probably waste half of his career rotting there. Ben R on the Bengals or Lions or Chiefs would be about as good as any of the QB's they currently have. Since he's on the Steelers with a great defense and great WR's, he's one of the best.

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It's true that Cincy has often been a dysfunctional organization and the defense has often been subpar.

But Palmer has had very good offensive talent around him for the most part. How many teams have had a wr nucleus the caliber of Chad Johnson and TJ Housh over the past couple of years? Rudi Johnson was also a very good rb until recently. His offensive line was also very good until this season.

I've seem Palmer play many times over the past few years. He is definitely very talented. I can see why he was the #1 pick coming out of USC (as opposed to Alex Smith, don't really understand what made him a #1 overall pick, except that he plays qb and there really was nobody else). But there's something missing. If his team needs a game winning td drive at the end of the game, I think Palmer more often than not won't get it done.

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