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melankfo

Tejada is back and killing us again!

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If anyone wants to figure out why so many quality posters are so condescending to others, all they have to do is read this thread.

When you state an opinion as a fact, one that is not a popular one, and don't or won't provide factual backup other then, "It's what I see," that is going to be the response.

Especially when the same people are making the same mistake again and again, and refuse to pay attention to anything other then whining when people get fed up with their crap.

It's a shame that it has to happen here, because it's one of the things that makes the Sun board such a horrid place. But as long as there are people that seem to believe that they are right and that they don't have to provide even the simplest evidence for their statements, it will happen.

Just proves Mark Twain's thoughts about it better to look like an idiot then to open your mouth and remove all doubt.

That's all fine and good- but it's a two way street. You are saying to bring "proof" of our own opinion? Isn't an opinion, just that? It's takes two people to make an argument- and numbers don't always tell the story. Somewhere in this thread- someone alluded to noone having any "common sense." Now which is it, common sense, or factual proof to back up an OPINION? It's an argument, there will be differences of opinion. You can show me as many numbers as you want, that dosn't mean I'll interpret them the same way.

Just because two cars can both accellerate at the same rate of speed, have the same horsepower, and look great with the top down, doesn't mean they will both perform the same. Numbers are constantly changing- and what meant something yesterday, or last week, month, or last year, doesn't necessarily hold true today.

There is more to an opinion than numbers and facts.

It's like the people who say they still haven't seen proof of Barry Bonds guilt for using steroids. It cant be spelled out much better- but there are still those that refuse to believe it until it is proven, or he admits it.

Same thing here- only with a bit more arrogance, on the side of those who "claim to be right."

It's so futile to argue points like this, and yet so impossible to avoid as Orioles fans. Here we are with a sudden losing attitude again after 2 games we could have won, and already to negativity is spreading on points that would othrwise be an afterthought.

What happened to- "Oh, I don't agree with you, In fact, I think this, and facts a,b,c and d support this. Think about it." Now it's just- "That's such a stupid thought. You're an idiot. Don't you know that he is this and this in rankings among SS, and bla bla bla... I am right and you are wrong."

We're all Orioles fans in the end, passionate ones at that, and we all want the same thing... otherwise we wouldn't be here. There is a very sad commentary on life in general about the fact that it's so tough to have a disagreement on here without resorting to going beyond the topic at hand with off the cuff remarks.

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Take the other 8 starters on the Orioles team:

C Hernandez

1B Millar

2B Roberts

3B Mora

LF Payton/Gibbons

CF Patterson

RF Markakis

DH Huff/Gibbons

Now, put Tejada in for any of those guys and put Luis Hernandez or Brandon Fahey in at SS. We are definitely a better offensive team with Tejada at SS and our original starter at their position than with Tejada replacing any one of these players at any position and Hernandez/Fahey/Gomez taking over full time at SS.

There is absolutely no reason to even suggest replacing Tejada with any of the guys in our organization at SS. If you want to suggest finding a better defensive SS but someone who can at least hold his own with the bat as well, thats fine, but we don't have that person in our organization.

The bottom line, and I really don't even think this is an opinion but rather a fact (although I haven't looked at the numbers, I'm better they'd support me if I did) is that we are a better overall team with Miggy at SS than with him anywhere else on the diamond and Hernandez/Fahey/Gomez starting every day at SS.

A dozen people have made that exact point a dozen times in a dozen threads.

He refuses to acknowledge it.

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That's all fine and good- but it's a two way street. You are saying to bring "proof" of our own opinion? Isn't an opinion, just that? It's takes two people to make an argument- and numbers don't always tell the story. Somewhere in this thread- someone alluded to noone having any "common sense." Now which is it, common sense, or factual proof to back up an OPINION? It's an argument, there will be differences of opinion. You can show me as many numbers as you want, that dosn't mean I'll interpret them the same way.

Just because two cars can both accellerate at the same rate of speed, have the same horsepower, and look great with the top down, doesn't mean they will both perform the same. Numbers are constantly changing- and what meant something yesterday, or last week, month, or last year, doesn't necessarily hold true today.

There is more to an opinion than numbers and facts.

It's like the people who say they still haven't seen proof of Barry Bonds guilt for using steroids. It cant be spelled out much better- but there are still those that refuse to believe it until it is proven, or he admits it.

Same thing here- only with a bit more arrogance, on the side of those who "claim to be right."

It's so futile to argue points like this, and yet so impossible to avoid as Orioles fans. Here we are with a sudden losing attitude again after 2 games we could have won, and already to negativity is spreading on points that would othrwise be an afterthought.

What happened to- "Oh, I don't agree with you, In fact, I think this, and facts a,b,c and d support this. Think about it." Now it's just- "That's such a stupid thought. You're an idiot. Don't you know that he is this and this in rankings among SS, and bla bla bla... I am right and you are wrong."

We're all Orioles fans in the end, passionate ones at that, and we all want the same thing... otherwise we wouldn't be here. There is a very sad commentary on life in general about the fact that it's so tough to have a disagreement on here without resorting to going beyond the topic at hand with off the cuff remarks.

I think the sun revolves around the earth and that the moon is made of Kraft American cheese slices.

I don't have any evidence to support either of these claims, but you have to respect my opinion. You can show me all the evidence you want, but that doesn't mean I'll interpret it the same way.

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If people want to think I am an idiot because I want Tejada defensively replaced as the Orioles shortstop by someone better so be it. I simply don't care one iota. I would rather be right and viewed that way than be wrong and viewed as an expert. :P:)

See, this isn't the real problem...It is you saying Tejada is bad defensively or that Gomez and Fahey are a lot better.

You ignore everything when you say that.

I find it funny how you didn't comment on Tejada's many good plays since he has been back but couldn't wait to something when he made an error.

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That's all fine and good- but it's a two way street. You are saying to bring "proof" of our own opinion? Isn't an opinion, just that? It's takes two people to make an argument- and numbers don't always tell the story. Somewhere in this thread- someone alluded to noone having any "common sense." Now which is it, common sense, or factual proof to back up an OPINION? It's an argument, there will be differences of opinion. You can show me as many numbers as you want, that dosn't mean I'll interpret them the same way.

But they aren't bringing numbers. They are essentially saying, "Miguel Tejada is a poor defensive shortstop...because I said so!"

Plus, they aren't even saying, "I think..."

They are saying, "He is/is not..."

That is a statement of fact, not an opinion, when in reality an opinion is all it is.

Just because two cars can both accellerate at the same rate of speed, have the same horsepower, and look great with the top down, doesn't mean they will both perform the same. Numbers are constantly changing- and what meant something yesterday, or last week, month, or last year, doesn't necessarily hold true today.

Right. Just like Luis Hernandez playing obscenely well on defense won't last.

The numbers don't tell the whole story, but it's like watching a game live versus on TV. Both have advantages and disadvantages, but television still tells you what you need to know despite being filtered.

There is more to an opinion than numbers and facts.

And there is more to a point then an opinion, which is an idea that some people refuse to grasp.

It's like the people who say they still haven't seen proof of Barry Bonds guilt for using steroids. It cant be spelled out much better- but there are still those that refuse to believe it until it is proven, or he admits it.

Actually, that proves MY point. People are refusing to see what is right there despite what is right in front of them, both numbers-wise and physically.

Same thing here- only with a bit more arrogance, on the side of those who "claim to be right."

It's so futile to argue points like this, and yet so impossible to avoid as Orioles fans. Here we are with a sudden losing attitude again after 2 games we could have won, and already to negativity is spreading on points that would othrwise be an afterthought.

Welcome to the board, you must be new here ;)

What happened to- "Oh, I don't agree with you, In fact, I think this, and facts a,b,c and d support this. Think about it." Now it's just- "That's such a stupid thought. You're an idiot. Don't you know that he is this and this in rankings among SS, and bla bla bla... I am right and you are wrong."

Again, that's MY point. People are saying, "Oh, I don't agree with you, In fact, I think this, and facts a,b,c and d support this. Think about it." Then the response is either just to ignore the argument or to say something to the effect of, "Well, I'm right because I see what I see."

That is where the frustration comes from.

We're all Orioles fans in the end, passionate ones at that, and we all want the same thing... otherwise we wouldn't be here. There is a very sad commentary on life in general about the fact that it's so tough to have a disagreement on here without resorting to going beyond the topic at hand with off the cuff remarks.

You managed to make arguments for both sides in the same post. I am truly impressed.

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Take the other 8 starters on the Orioles team:

C Hernandez

1B Millar

2B Roberts

3B Mora

LF Payton/Gibbons

CF Patterson

RF Markakis

DH Huff/Gibbons

Now, put Tejada in for any of those guys and put Luis Hernandez or Brandon Fahey in at SS. We are definitely a better offensive team with Tejada at SS and our original starter at their position than with Tejada replacing any one of these players at any position and Hernandez/Fahey/Gomez taking over full time at SS.

There is absolutely no reason to even suggest replacing Tejada with any of the guys in our organization at SS. If you want to suggest finding a better defensive SS but someone who can at least hold his own with the bat as well, thats fine, but we don't have that person in our organization.

The bottom line, and I really don't even think this is an opinion but rather a fact (although I haven't looked at the numbers, I'm better they'd support me if I did) is that we are a better overall team with Miggy at SS than with him anywhere else on the diamond and Hernandez/Fahey/Gomez starting every day at SS.

In general I don't see how anyone can state anything is a "fact" when it is a mere projection as you are suggesting. It may be a good probability but it certainly wouldn't be a fact until you tested it out with Tejada not on short, but still in the lineup. Since this has not happened all you are doing is espousing mere conjecture. You nor anyone else knows for certain, but I think opposite of you. Of course I can't prove it either but we are talking opinions here not facts anyway. Ergo, I don't know why anyone needs to get so upset about it.

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Eli's argument is that the runs we lose by Tejada's mistakes defensively don't equal the runs he's produced offensively. It's a tough one to win, but it has some validity to it. There has been games where Miggy didn't quite make a play the led to runs or extended an inning that wound up being the difference in the game. No one can deny that. Do those games equal the ones where his bat is the difference? Who knows? One would have to review every game to really gauge the difference.

To argue that Eli is absolutely wrong is wrong. In a perfect world in games where Tejada goes 0-4 and struggled defensively yes you wish Hernendez was in there to make that play in a close game. Who knows when that happens? No one. So you play the average infielder with the dynamite bat. Offense is a part of the game too.

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A dozen people have made that exact point a dozen times in a dozen threads.

He refuses to acknowledge it.

I acknowledge it but disagree with it. What part of that don't you understand?:confused:

Chollie Eckman gets it, even though he may not agree with me either, he at least understands my position. What some of you don't seem to understand I am not trying to win an argument but rather post my strongly held thoughts and beliefs. If you disagree fine.

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In general I don't see how any can state anything is a "fact" when it is a mere projection as you are suggesting. It may be a good probability but it certainly wouldn't be a fact until you tested it out with Tejada not on short, but still in the lineup. Since this has not happened all you are doing is espousing mere conjecture. You nor anyone else knows for certain, but I think opposite of you. Of course I can't prove it either but we are talking opinions here not facts.

So, he is projecting, but your assumption that Hernandez or Fahey would be equal-to or better-then Tejada defensively over a full season, or that Tejada would make a good-enough transition to the outfield, is a fact?

He has numbers to back himself up. Do you?

I doubt it, and this post is exhibit "A" of what people are complaining about.

I have a question. Do you want people to debate you with arguments, or do you just want to express your opinion, damn the torpedoes?

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In general I don't see how any can state anything is a "fact" when it is a mere projection as you are suggesting. It may be a good probability but it certainly wouldn't be a fact until you tested it out with Tejada not on short, but still in the lineup. Since this has not happened all you are doing is espousing mere conjecture. You nor anyone else knows for certain, but I think opposite of you. Of course I can't prove it either but we are talking opinions here not facts.

I do not agree with your opinion on the underlying issue, but I do agree that this is, at least in part, a matter of opinion. The available statistics do not support your opinion, but there are good arguments to be made that the available statistics do not do a great job of measuring defense and its impact. So, I respect your right to have the opinion you do, even though I think you are wrong.

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I acknowledge it but disagree with it. What part of that don't you understand?:confused:

Chollie Eckman gets it, even though he may not agree with me either, he at least understands my position. What some of you don't seem to understand I am not trying to win an argument but rather post my strongly held thoughts and beliefs. If you disagree fine.

They must be strong if they can withstand any actual facts that are brought in.

This is officially a political argument, since it is about belief over fact, so I respectfully request that this thread be closed.

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See, this isn't the real problem...It is you saying Tejada is bad defensively or that Gomez and Fahey are a lot better.

You ignore everything when you say that.

I find it funny how you didn't comment on Tejada's many good plays since he has been back but couldn't wait to something when he made an error.

Gomez and Fahey are better defensively, and I believe by a fairly wide margin as Tejada has already made some bad play since returning. He has made some good ones as well, but the bad ones were killers. Hence I think the title of this thread is extremely appropriate!:P

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I do not agree with your opinion on the underlying issue, but I do agree that this is, at least in part, a matter of opinion. The available statistics do not support your opinion, but there are good arguments to be made that the available statistics do not do a great job of measuring defense and its impact. So, I respect your right to have the opinion you do, even though I think you are wrong.

Despite his not stating it as an opinion.

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Gomez and Fahey are better defensively, and I believe by a fairly wide margin as Tejada has already made some bad play since returning. He has made some good ones as well, but the bad ones were killers.

What evidence do you have, other then simple observation, since everyone disagrees on that?

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So, he is projecting, but your assumption that Hernandez or Fahey would be equal-to or better-then Tejada defensively over a full season, or that Tejada would make a good-enough transition to the outfield, is a fact?

He has numbers to back himself up. Do you?

I doubt it, and this post is exhibit "A" of what people are complaining about.

I have a question. Do you want people to debate you with arguments, or do you just want to express your opinion, damn the torpedoes?

He is "projecting" and I am "projecting." Nobody has factual numbers when they are projecting.

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