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"Mickey" Manto

Does this Tejada mess change things for Raffy...?

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I've read most of this thread, forgive me if I'm not the first to say this... Miggi is NOT under indictment because of using steroids or HgH or anything else. It's simply because he didn't name the nameless Oakland player who he apparently knew used. He's under indictment because he didn't rat someone out from 2003 (or whenever.)

This is not proof that he ever used. This is also not proof of anything whatsoever regarding Raffy. Raf made his own bed! Not some hot-loaded B-12 shot from Mig. :rolleyes:

Don't get me wrong... Tejada maybe (probably) used. But let's get our terms straight here...

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If Raffy honestly believes he didn't use steroids (and he apparently did prior to testing positive for Winstrol), why doesn't he come out and try to fix his name? Take a lie detector test? Because he used steroids. ARod lied 15 months ago. McGwire took a crappy way out. Sosa pretended he couldn't speak English. The list really goes on. Hell, there is undeniable evidence against Barry Bonds (read a couple books), and he's STILL denying it to this day. His tone has changed, however, that he didn't know what he took. Apparently he was taking arthritis medicine and the such. Yeah, right.

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If Raffy honestly believes he didn't use steroids (and he apparently did prior to testing positive for Winstrol), why doesn't he come out and try to fix his name? Take a lie detector test? Because he used steroids. ARod lied 15 months ago. McGwire took a crappy way out. Sosa pretended he couldn't speak English. The list really goes on. Hell, there is undeniable evidence against Barry Bonds (read a couple books), and he's STILL denying it to this day. His tone has changed, however, that he didn't know what he took. Apparently he was taking arthritis medicine and the such. Yeah, right.

Exactly.

Raffy was a user all the way back in Texas, the whole story with Tejada was him trying to throw an already tainted Tejada under the bus even further hoping it would take the heat off him. That's a crap move even from a cheater like Palmeiro.

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I've always believed there was more to the Raffy business than we know. But this indictment of Miggy is about giving false info as to his knowledge of other players steroid use, and would have little bearing on Raffy IMO.

I bet Raffy is on the list of 104 and if it comes out, thats it for raffy no HOFfor him.

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If Raffy honestly believes he didn't use steroids (and he apparently did prior to testing positive for Winstrol), why doesn't he come out and try to fix his name? Take a lie detector test? Because he used steroids. ARod lied 15 months ago. McGwire took a crappy way out. Sosa pretended he couldn't speak English. The list really goes on. Hell, there is undeniable evidence against Barry Bonds (read a couple books), and he's STILL denying it to this day. His tone has changed, however, that he didn't know what he took. Apparently he was taking arthritis medicine and the such. Yeah, right.
Raffy did take a lie detector test. He was asked if he believed his positive result was from tainted B12, he said yes, and he passed.* He kept denying he knowingly used steroids for a full year after his positive result. After A-Rod's positive test leaked, he admitted it. Palmeiro tested positive, and still denied it. The problem is, once that positive test is out there, how exactly can he unprove it? It's just impossible. If the entire 104 gets leaked and he's not on it, that could help his case, but still wouldn't clear his name.

*He was not, however, asked if he ever knowingly used steroids. Draw whatever conclusions you'd like from that.

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I'm not sure if anyone has ever brought up this point before, but does anyone think Raffy might have been telling the truth about his positive test results?

I think it's pretty certain that Tejada was juicing and the whole scenario of Raffy "accidentally" taking 'roids might actually fly. I'm still not sure if I believe it, but it's an interesting thought.

Before the positive test, Raffy ranked right up there with Cal and Eddie for me. My heart would love for him to be vindicated somehow, but my head knows that's very unlikely...

Nope nada.

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I don't think the Tejada indictment either hurts or helps Raffy. The substance Tejada purchased (already discussed in the Mitchell report, BTW) is not the substance for which Raffy tested positive, and the Tejada incident in question took place long before the Raffy incident.

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Exactly.

Raffy was a user all the way back in Texas, the whole story with Tejada was him trying to throw an already tainted Tejada under the bus even further hoping it would take the heat off him. That's a crap move even from a cheater like Palmeiro.

This is what doesn't make sense to me. If you assume Raffy was an experienced user since Texas, why would he use such a clumsy steroid after he had called attention to himself before Congress. If he was experienced, he would have either used something sophisticated that would be undetectable, as he must have done for prior tests(since he never tested positive prior, unlike Bonds and Aroid)or he simply would have avoided using them alltogether.

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This is what doesn't make sense to me. If you assume Raffy was an experienced user since Texas, why would he use such a clumsy steroid after he had called attention to himself before Congress. If he was experienced, he would have either used something sophisticated that would be undetectable, as he must have done for prior tests(since he never tested positive prior, unlike Bonds and Aroid)or he simply would have avoided using them alltogether.

You don't know if Raffy tested positive in the past because there wasn't steroid testing prior to 2004. In 2003 those tests were supposed to be kept anonymous. Hell, we don't even know if he was stacking Winstrol with other steroids. He could have been taking the Cream and the Clear which were pretty much the go to steroids for BALCO clients.

And Winstrol isn't exactly a clumsy steroid. Depending upon how he took it (injection or pill form) it could last anywhere from 3 weeks to 2 months. Most ballplayers (and this can be found in Game of Shadows and the Canseco books) take deca-durabolin (Nandrolone), not to mention designer steroids and HGH. (HGH is undetectable without blood testing...)

Raffy tested positive for Winstrol in 2005. And was suspended on August 1st. Steroid testing is random in baseball, so he didn't know when. But if he was still taking steroids, there aren't many steroids that are going to be undetectable in a short period of time. Winstrol would probably be the drug of choice for him, especially since you don't typically bulk with it. It's more of a strength steroid.

The Cream and the Clear are (were) undetectable due to masking agents. We don't know if Raffy was cocktailing that with the Winstrol as well. We just don't know. But where there's smoke, there's fire. Canseco outted Raffy in his books. And normally I'd call Canseco a blowhard, but I really believe him in regards to the players who took steroids. He hasn't been wrong, yet. Suddenly he's the smartest man in the room.

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We just don't know.

Exactly right.

But where there's smoke, there's fire.

No, that's just not true. Sometimes when there's smoke, it's nothing but smoke.

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Don't take what I said out of context. We don't know what ALL he took. We do know that he took Winstrol due to the failed drug test. We do know that Canseco outted Palmeiro.

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You don't know if Raffy tested positive in the past because there wasn't steroid testing prior to 2004. In 2003 those tests were supposed to be kept anonymous. Hell, we don't even know if he was stacking Winstrol with other steroids. He could have been taking the Cream and the Clear which were pretty much the go to steroids for BALCO clients.

And Winstrol isn't exactly a clumsy steroid. Depending upon how he took it (injection or pill form) it could last anywhere from 3 weeks to 2 months. Most ballplayers (and this can be found in Game of Shadows and the Canseco books) take deca-durabolin (Nandrolone), not to mention designer steroids and HGH. (HGH is undetectable without blood testing...)

Raffy tested positive for Winstrol in 2005. And was suspended on August 1st. Steroid testing is random in baseball, so he didn't know when. But if he was still taking steroids, there aren't many steroids that are going to be undetectable in a short period of time. Winstrol would probably be the drug of choice for him, especially since you don't typically bulk with it. It's more of a strength steroid.

The Cream and the Clear are (were) undetectable due to masking agents. We don't know if Raffy was cocktailing that with the Winstrol as well. We just don't know. But where there's smoke, there's fire. Canseco outted Raffy in his books. And normally I'd call Canseco a blowhard, but I really believe him in regards to the players who took steroids. He hasn't been wrong, yet. Suddenly he's the smartest man in the room.

My point is simple; stanozolol is easily detctable. Players had moved on from that to more sophistcated combinations to avoid detection. Palmeiro's prior tests were negative. He was tested on two different occasions pror to 2005. Congress could find no evidence of his use prior to his staetments before the committee. So either he wasn't using or he was using sophisticated undetectable steroids. Why would he switch back to something easily detectable after that?

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Frankly, I don't really care about who did or didn't use steroids anymore. I suspect that a substantial percentage of players were using, whether that means 25% or 75%. I also think that players today are probably still using, they just are smarter about it, ie using designer drugs that are currently undetectable.

With regards to Palmeiro, I think it's pretty hard to defend him or believe his story.

- He tested positive for stanozolol.

- Stanozolol was the same drug that Canseco had accused Palmeiro of taking in his book. Coincidence?

- He took a polygraph test which he passed but was never asked, "Have you ever knowingly used steroids?" Hmmm....

- Canseco came to the Rangers towards the end of the 1992 season. In 1993, Palmeiro set his career high for hr with 37. He had hit 8, 14, 26 and 22 hr in his previous 4 seasons in Texas, which were his age 24-27 seasons. Coincidence?

- Many observers who wanted to believe Palmeiro's innocence pointed (yes that's a pun) at Palmeiro's adamant denial before Congress. But anyone who works for the FBI or something similar will tell you that his exxagerated finger jabbing was a likely sign that he was actually being deceitful.

- Why would any professional athlete take anything (in this case an IM injection) which wasn't through the team doctor? Either they are really stupid (which is an argument some on here seem to support) or they want to take something that the organization will not recommend.

I understand why an athlete would take PEDs. I don't really blame them. There's a lot of money at stake, athletes are naturally going to look for any edge, etc. I'm not condoning it, but I understand the temptation.

But if you're caught, just be forthcoming and admit it. The public is very forgiving. It's when the athletes deny, deny, deny (Clemens), say that they only took it once or twice (Pettitte), deny knowingly taking them (Bonds), don't remember what they actually took (ARod), forget how to speak English (Sosa), don't wish to talk about the past (Big Mac), threaten to sue Canseco (Palmeiro), etc... that the public gets annoyed.

At least that's how I feel.

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oriole_way, you summed up my feelings exactly.

El Gordo, you can't just completely write off Winstrol as a drug that ballplayers don't use, and hence absolve Palmeiro of knowingly using it. I just think that's incredibly erroneous. Hell, pretty much verbatim of what I believe is what oriole_way said.

I think Raffy lied to his fans and the nation. He's getting everything he deserves.

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oriole_way, you summed up my feelings exactly.

El Gordo, you can't just completely write off Winstrol as a drug that ballplayers don't use, and hence absolve Palmeiro of knowingly using it. I just think that's incredibly erroneous. Hell, pretty much verbatim of what I believe is what oriole_way said.

I think Raffy lied to his fans and the nation. He's getting everything he deserves.

I'm just reflecting what I read at the time. Numerous experts were qouted as saying the stanozolol found in Palmeiro was an outmoded steroid, of the kind Ben Johnson got caught for in 1988, and that most athletes had moved on to more sophisticted, less detectable forms. In all the investigations of steroid use, including Congress' purjury investigation, and the Mitchell report, no evidence has been found of Palmeiro's use of steroids prior to his tesimony before Congress. So either he wasn't using them or he was using them in a way so as to avoid detection. An injection of stanozolol weeks after his testimony would not be the act of someone with a sophisticated knowledge of the use of steroids, IMO. Edited by El Gordo

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