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Ok, so this post goes back to the all and usual optimistic vs pessimistic fan fight. Lets drop the egos right now and take a look at things.

Everyone has the right to be optimistic and pessimistic, its all cool. Optimisitic fans get excited early and theres nothing wrong with that and pessimistic fans wait and see. However, the important thing is that everyone here is a fan, and we are all waiting to watch how the season progresses.

A lot of mention is made to being rational or not. Everyone here is in some ways rational; this whole realistic stuff means jack.

Almost every poster speculates, sometimes their claims have more backing, sometimes they dont, but that doesnt necessarily mean they are wrong. In fact, no one here can be wrong when it comes to prediciting this up and coming season because it hasnt even happened yet.

So all in all, optimistic people are right, pessimistic people are right; no need to keep fighting back and forth. Its like a competition of rhetorical questions.

Ill throw in an extra 2 cents here and just say that I think the Oriole organization has made strides this year they havent made in the past. Whether or not they are good strides has yet to be determined; but for the mere fact that they have been actively engaged in this team excites me.

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This whole post reminds me of the totally ridiculous arguments I used to have with my ex-wife....:rolleyes:

Yeah, but this ridiculous argument didn't cost us anything. ;)

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Blue Jays, Yankees, Red Sox (all in our division for a start). White Sox, Mets, Dodgers just off the top of my head as well.

Dodgers? Had the Orioles signed "washed up" players like Nomar, Lofton, and the likes, we would nevre here the end of it about what is the O's FO thinking from posters such as yourself.

Blue Jays? Sure, they spent lots of money, and they are taking a big chance. However, Glaus is still an injury concern, Burnett could or could not be worth the huge contract, and the same for BJ Ryan. If you truly think that Burnett and Ryan signing for huge money for FIVE years was good signings, then I will respectfully disagree.

Yanks? Damon was a good pickup, but I also read poster after poster on here who talked about how overprriced he is and how his arm is worse than my dead grandmothers.

Red Sox? Lost Damon. No first baseman. Lowell was highly criticized on here last year when we were trying to get Burnett.

Mets and White Sox had solid offseasons, but the others I have issues with. Spening lots of money does not neccessarily make a good offseason.

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Ummmm, did you watch the same "end of last season" that I watched?? 'Cause I hate to break it to ya' -- it wasn't pretty.
July            8  18      98     135   0.308August         11  17     104     154   0.393September      10  18     124     144   0.357October         2   0      10       5   1.000

Source

Witchy

Thank you Witchy for adding much needed perspective to this debate!!

You know when I will pay attention to such comments such as "the worm has turned"?

At the end of this coming season when and if we post a winning record!! Actions folks...over the course of an entire season. Until then, it is all just a bunch of talk and rhetoric.

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At the end of this coming season when and if we post a winning record!! Actions folks...over the course of an entire season. Until then, it is all just a bunch of talk and rhetoric.

You're last statement is true, but "talk" and "rhetoric" aren't quite the same thing. Some of what happens here is talk, while other stuff if rhetoric. Personally, I wish there was a lot more of people talking with each other and sorting out what they do and don't agree about. Sadly, there seems to be a whole lot of rhetoric that indicates that people have "taken a position", don't have much of an open mind, and just slap at others without giving their views much of a chance. It's often more of a slap-a-thon than a talk-a-thon. Seems a shame to me but, then again, what do I know?

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Wow. Lighten up, everyone. It's March. If a fan can't be enthusiastic then, when can he (or she)?

Face it. Loewen, Bedard, Chen and Lopez all were very impressive in their WBC debuts, and that's a good reason for some early enthusiasm. Nick Markakis has been extremely impressive, and that's another reason to be enthusiastic. Tejada and Javy Lopez have both acted the way you'd hope they would act after the things they and their agents said over the winter. Brian Roberts seems to be making good progress recovering from his injury. The news this spring has mostly been good, and after a terrible end to 2005 and a fairly tumultous winter, it is a big relief.

Two months from now, we may be right back in the soup, but for right now, I'm with boogie.

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Wow. Lighten up, everyone. It's March. If a fan can't be enthusiastic then, when can he (or she)?

Two months from now, we may be right back in the soup, but for right now, I'm with boogie.

I am with you and Boogie as well, as far as being enthusiastic and positive.

That said, I would have written something like..

"The Worm may be turning..." or

"The Worm is turning....."

But to say the worm has turned, as in past tense, as in already, well, that is just not very accurate as it is not validated by a full season's result.

If by worm turning, all you mean is some positive changes that may lead to a successful campaign, then so be it, but I define worm turning as a winning season at season's end.

Go Birds.

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The news this spring has mostly been good, and after a terrible end to 2005 and a fairly tumultous winter, it is a big relief.

Two months from now, we may be right back in the soup, but for right now, I'm with boogie.

The only difference between it happening again this year are the characters involved. While we "hoped" that Sosa would turn out to be a good signing and returning to his glory, deep down we "knew" that he would be trouble, so it was no surprise when it happened. We "hoped " that Ponson would have grown up, but after his arrest last January, we "knew" he was the same old Sir Sid and that he would be a huge failure, which he was. Prior to the season, we "hoped" that Raffy was being honest in front of Congress and that he would put up good numbers, but deep down we had an idea that he might have been a steroid user. So it was not a huge surprise when he tested positive.

This year, going into the season, we know the players, we know the characters, and we at least know what could occur. We know that with a bad start to the season, Tejada "could" ask to be traded again. Without a contract extension, Lopez "could" become a malcontent. However, it isn't likely. Tejada is a superstar, and he always shows up to play. Javy has a contract to play for in 2007, so regardless if he gets that new contract as an Oriole or not, he will be giving 100% effort between the lines. Same for Mora. Conine, Millar, Roberts, Gibby, and Hernandez are all postive attitude players, so we would not expect any problems from them. And all of our starters, (with the exception of Benson, who could have sulked after the Mets traded him, but instead has been truly positive all the way so far), are all young and trying to prove themselves as major league starters for years to come, so it would not be in their best interest to start problems. Mix all of that in with the fact that Perlozzo, Mazzone, Flanny, and the Duke will not allow the same issues that Mazilli let get out of control, and the chance of off the field issues like last year seem fairly unlikely to me.

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So two teams come to mind. And you use that as an argument AGAINST the Orioles off season?

Regardless of what other teams did, we did not fill the major holes that we had coming into the off-season. The two biggest needs IMO were a dominant pitcher and a legit clean up hitter to protect Tejada. I would have loved to see us try and get Burnett and Glaus to fill those roles. Instead our division rival picks them up. Do they have injury question marks? Sure, but who doesn't.

Adding a bullpen arm would have been nice as well. Dotel won't be available to June, but certainly he would have been worth the wait, since he is a great reliever when healthy.

Those are three impact players who could have helped the team. We had plenty of money to spend and to my knowledge didn't even try to go after them. All three ended up inside our division.

We needed help in the outfield and a long term solution at 1B. We ended up with Conine & Millar. Markakis may solve half that problem, so I'll give them that one. 1B is still an issue and will be again in '07. Centerfield needs upgraded.

Hernandez is a significant long-term upgrade over Javy. Benson is an upgrade over Ponson (who isn't). I'll take Hawkins over Kline anyday. But those players aren't going to elevate us into contender status.

Again, the moves we did make will help the team and should certainly improve us to an above .500 record (which is important for this franchise), but I felt there were much better options available that could have put a contending team on the field. Most of which could have been done just through free agency without giving up most of our top prospects.

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I am with you and Boogie as well, as far as being enthusiastic and positive.

That said, I would have written something like..

"The Worm may be turning..." or

"The Worm is turning....."

But to say the worm has turned, as in past tense, as in already, well, that is just not very accurate as it is not validated by a full season's result.

If by worm turning, all you mean is some positive changes that may lead to a successful campaign, then so be it, but I define worm turning as a winning season at season's end.

Go Birds.

I never said how far he has turned :002_sbiggrin:

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Trinidad freakin' Hubbard. YOU brought it up! You brought the evidence into play, it was countered and now you're denying its relevance in the first place.

No, Witchy misunderstood me. I meant using the end of last year in comparison to the offseason and now spring training. I am not that stupid to forget how the end of last year went.

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Regardless of what other teams did, we did not fill the major holes that we had coming into the off-season. The two biggest needs IMO were a dominant pitcher and a legit clean up hitter to protect Tejada. I would have loved to see us try and get Burnett and Glaus to fill those roles. Instead our division rival picks them up. Do they have injury question marks? Sure, but who doesn't.

Adding a bullpen arm would have been nice as well. Dotel won't be available to June, but certainly he would have been worth the wait, since he is a great reliever when healthy.

Those are three impact players who could have helped the team. We had plenty of money to spend and to my knowledge didn't even try to go after them. All three ended up inside our division.

We needed help in the outfield and a long term solution at 1B. We ended up with Conine & Millar. Markakis may solve half that problem, so I'll give them that one. 1B is still an issue and will be again in '07. Centerfield needs upgraded.

Hernandez is a significant long-term upgrade over Javy. Benson is an upgrade over Ponson (who isn't). I'll take Hawkins over Kline anyday. But those players aren't going to elevate us into contender status.

Again, the moves we did make will help the team and should certainly improve us to an above .500 record (which is important for this franchise), but I felt there were much better options available that could have put a contending team on the field. Most of which could have been done just through free agency without giving up most of our top prospects.

Every team has needs. We replaced Ponson with Benson and to me thats a big improvement. I do believe Patterson will be a good move as well.

And how come we always forget about Mazzone? And Duquette. This team is better than its been in 8 years in so many ways, in my opinion

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Every team has needs. We replaced Ponson with Benson and to me thats a big improvement. I do believe Patterson will be a good move as well.

And how come we always forget about Mazzone? And Duquette. This team is better than its been in 8 years in so many ways, in my opinion

Hate to jump in this late on a classic thread, but I've got to add my annual 2 cents of March optimism to the equation...in agreement with those who feel that in many ways large and small, this season is different.

See my new article "Beyond the Numbers" (under Gray from the OH front page). More fuel for the continuing debate...this time while being fearlessly unmathematical...

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Hate to jump in this late on a classic thread, but I've got to add my annual 2 cents of March optimism to the equation...in agreement with those who feel that in many ways large and small, this season is different.

See my new article "Beyond the Numbers" (under Gray from the OH front page). More fuel for the continuing debate...this time while being fearlessly unmathematical...

Thanks.

http://www.orioleshangout.com/article.asp?ID=139

By the way, I think you should be able to go directly to the OH by clicking the logo above instead of the link way down at the bottom. I think people will visit the main page more often (I have my shortcut link go directly to the forums)

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Our farm system is showing promise

Our front office is begin aggresive

Our players are kicking ass in the WBC

Our staff is responding to Mazzone (just read the interviews)

The perception that guys dont want to come here is gone.

There is so much talent on this team that is not "crazy" to think this team can be exciting this year and even stay in the WC race.

Despite what some, actually very few, posters seem to feel, this team is headed in the right direction. What a difference 5 months can make.

I agree that there is plenty to be optimistic about and your points are well taken. See ya at the Yard!

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