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Roy Firestone

Even for all the good stuff on the horizon...heres why this is a horror

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I don't totally disagree with Roy's analysis. He has it right in stating Reimold, Isturis, Jones, (he forgot Wieters) have all been pleasant surprises but they have not offset the horrid season of Melvin Mora for example, or the below par seasons of Huff, Guthrie, Ray, Walker, Eaton, Hill, Hendrickson ( as a starter) and the injured Kojehara. What this amounts to is AM over-estimating some of these marginal at best veteran pitchers he aquired or retained and not allowing for the possible and actual occurence of Mora's decline and Huff's unexpected drop off. Couple that with Markakis not improving and actually dropping of in homers and Roberts being terrible in clutch hitting and you have an unexpected offensive decline. Thus, this team is measurably worse especially when everyone knew the starting pitching was going to be putrid to begin with.

Edited by Old#5fan

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For all the talk about performance and people not being as good as we think they are... I sincerely believe it's the mentality of the team.

A guy like Aubrey Huff for example is not a "AAAA stud"; he's a legit major-leaguer. Last year he performed incredibly well, because he embarrased himself and had something to prove. This year? Apparently not.

The Orioles have talent as far as I can see. This team was told from jump street that they were not going to compete in 2009, and they bought into it. I sincerely hope that by next year they buy into the opposite. I can only wonder.

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The big difference this year I think is Guthrie, Mora, and Huff. But Guthrie in particular. The team should have been better this year, but the guy that was our number one pitcher last year is now pitching like a lemon. If Tillman and Mastuz pitch well then things will pick up. I think all the team needs is a good first or third basemen next year to be a lot better. Wigginton can fill in at third until the next year.

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You can quibble with a fact or two.Ill grant you that. But do you really think this team should be 9 games worse than last year and 16 games below .500?

From the other side, one could argue that last year's team should not have been 9 games better. The near .500 record at this point was done with smoke and mirrors and the end of the season collapse was more a regression to the mean than an anomaly in itself.

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I agree Roy, any way you slice it we are not progressing as a team. It's true we have some pieces in place, but we're still treading water...filling a hole while two more open up....

Where this team can improve over last year's team is in the August and September play. Last year's team completely imploded in September. If the O's can play decent ball from now until the end of the year, they can build some momentum and look forward to 2010. If they limp across the finish line again, I am not so sure about the future of this team.

At some point they've got to complete a 162 season while playing competitive ball.

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Everyone knew going into this season that we weren't ready to compete. We were gonna let players like Adam Jones and all of our minor league pitching talent grow into another year of professional baseball.

Yes Melvin hasn't been producing like in the past; but regardless of our record, I like the team we are fielding. We have young talent (most under the age of 26) and we have 2 great team leaders in Nick Markakis and Brian Roberts that are signed for multiple years. This gives the youngsters some confidence knowing that Nick and Brian will be there moving forward. Lead by example on the field and off the field.

Adam Jones has shown tremendous growth and Nolan Reimold; what Oriole fan hasn't been shocked by the amount of growth he has shown in very little time. Even Matt Wieters has been brought up and shown some growth.

I don't care if we are worse than last year, this year has been very exciting and we know what type of men our prospects are becoming in this professional game of baseball and you have to ROOT and/or be Excited about it!

Let's go Tillman and Matusz, now is YOUR TIME! =)

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So tired of these threads .... :(

Yes, but equally tired am I of the Orioles annually overestimating what they'll get out of declining/disenchanted veterans and journeyman types; read Melvin Mora, Aubrey Huff, Guthrie...he--, even Brian Roberts, etc.

Year after year, this team must rely on "career years" from everyone just to sniff .500, and many don't have that in them any more or never did.

Just sayin.....

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Isn't there any merit to us becoming a better team, but also counting the fact that every team in the AL has gotten considerably better as well? The Yankees especially. We had the benefit of the Yankees off year last year. Now we have to deal with the always hot Red Sox, the new look Yankees with Sabathia, Burnett and Tex... the first half Jays were dominating, the Rays are not far behind in the WC race... I mean... the Orioles have a worse record, but is it really because we're a "worse team"? I just think the AL East got better by a larger margin than we've improved.

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Isn't there any merit to us becoming a better team, but also counting the fact that every team in the AL has gotten considerably better as well? The Yankees especially. We had the benefit of the Yankees off year last year. Now we have to deal with the always hot Red Sox, the new look Yankees with Sabathia, Burnett and Tex... the first half Jays were dominating, the Rays are not far behind in the WC race... I mean... the Orioles have a worse record, but is it really because we're a "worse team"? I just think the AL East got better by a larger margin than we've improved.

BINGO! And THIS is what scares the hell out of me. We can talk about growing the kids and doing things the "right way" but the fact is there are no rules in baseball. We can sit here and talk about 2011 all we want, but by the time we THINK we will be good in 2011, the Yankees and Sox will just keep retooling each and every year to put even BETTER talent on the field than what we can. Look at the Sox at the trade deadline. They currently have THREE first baseman on their team who ALL would be starting on the Orioles, in Martinez, Kotchman, and Youk (did anyone here Dempsey call him "You-kill-us"? That was awesome, and so GD true!) Even IF, and that right there is a BIG IF, but even IF everyone lives up to expectations by 2011, do we really think the Yanks, Sox, or even Rays are gonna just sit around and not get better? We MAY be able to squeak a wild card spot ONE season here or there, but we will never be able to compete on an annual basis in the AL East, and that is the shame of MLB and it will not change because the Yanks and Sox are the teams people want to see anyway. Sorry for being down, but I just do not think the Baltimore Orioles will compete in this division with the philosphy they currently have.

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I agree Roy, any way you slice it we are not progressing as a team.

I assume this was a typo and you meant to say, "This one specific way that we very carefully slice it..."

That's really the only way it isn't an incorrect statement.

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Isn't there any merit to us becoming a better team, but also counting the fact that every team in the AL has gotten considerably better as well? The Yankees especially. We had the benefit of the Yankees off year last year. Now we have to deal with the always hot Red Sox, the new look Yankees with Sabathia, Burnett and Tex... the first half Jays were dominating, the Rays are not far behind in the WC race... I mean... the Orioles have a worse record, but is it really because we're a "worse team"? I just think the AL East got better by a larger margin than we've improved.

Yep! The other teams, in the AL East especially, have gotten considerably better....and have been doing so almost every year for a long time. I have no doubt that this is more key the decline in the W/L record than the play of any particular group of Oriole players.

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I assume this was a typo and you meant to say, "This one specific way that we very carefully slice it..."

That's really the only way it isn't an incorrect statement.

You look at it one way and I look at it another way.

You are just looking at it the wrong way. ;)

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We shouldn't speak of MacPhail's tenure in the context of 12 years of misery. People are getting impatient because of that long period of frustration and are saying that we should be showing more progress now.

Yet MacPhail's only been in charge since 2007 and he's done very well.You can't hold him responsible for a decade of failure under Wren, Thrift, Flanagan and Beattie, and he shouldn't be criticized for the Orioles not improving fast enough. He should be judged for three years, not 12.

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Roy, your post is spot on. I've had about all I can take of losing seasons, and seasons where the team's record is worse than it was the year before. At some point, good individual stories and promising young players just fade into the background of the constant losing. Eventually, all you care about is seeing the team play better and win more games.

I've resigned myself to another losing season, where we may do even worse than last year. But this is where the line has to be drawn. Next year I really need to see HUGE improvement to keep my sanity as a fan.

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