Jump to content
NewOrioleWork

The Official Transit and Urban Development Thread

Recommended Posts

Detailed coverage of the ICC.

http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/traffic/bal-icc,0,1189772.storygallery?coll=bal_tab01_layout

It really was the baby of Ehrlich's administration. You couldn't go to MDOT headquaters in 2k6 and NOT hear about the ICC. GBBI was just a bump on the road by comparison.

Everytime I hear a suburbanite complain about their tax dollars going toward public transportation, I think of the ICC, and how my family and I will NEVER use that thing yet so much of our tax money goes toward it instead of the public transportation we use every single day. :002_ssad:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/local/baltimore_city/bal-arena1113,0,726928.story?coll=bal_tab01_layout

Seven groups of developers have submitted proposals to build a new arena to replace the 45-year-old 1st Mariner Arena in downtown Baltimore, according to a statement issued this morning from the Baltimore Development Corp.

The proposals are from:

• Arena Development Group

• Cormony Development; Harrison Development; and Team 52 Development (run by Ravens linebacker Ray Lewis)

• Hale Properties; Greenberg Gibbons Commercial Corp.

• Pinnacle Properties & Development; Garfield Traub Development LLC; AEG

• Struever Bros. Eccles & Rouse; Capital Venture Group

• Turner Development Group

• White Rhino Development

The Hale proposal is almost certainly for Canton. The Cormony proposal is probably for a site either in or near the Gateway South project, which is south of Ravens Stadium. The others, who knows. I would guess most envision rebuilding on the current site, but that is purely a guess.

The BDC asked in August for the proposals to be in by Oct. 30 for a new arena with 15,000 to 16,000 seats, 10 to 20 suites and 1,000 to 2,000 club seats. Developers were urged to include "vibrant retail or other activity to enhance the street-level experience even when the arena does not have an event."

Eh, I know they are thinking we will never get a NBA or NHL franchise here, but I hope they've looked into whether this size arena will be a draw for other events (concerts, conventions, NCAA first/second rounds, etc). If not, this is poor planning.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm hoping they mean 15,000-16,000 seats, PLUS the suites and club seats, around a "hockey" configuration, where they could add a couple more thousand seats for basketball, etc.

As long as it doesn't have a frickin' permanent stage...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/local/baltimore_city/bal-arena1113,0,726928.story?coll=bal_tab01_layout

Eh, I know they are thinking we will never get a NBA or NHL franchise here, but I hope they've looked into whether this size arena [15,000-16,000] will be a draw for other events (concerts, conventions, NCAA first/second rounds, etc). If not, this is poor planning.

It looks like a couple of the developers that submitted bids get it as far as size goes. Oddly enough, one of them is Hale, who picked the worst possible spot to build an arena IMO.

Also unresolved is the size of a new arena. A report commissioned by the Maryland Stadium Authority this year proposed a 15,000- to 16,000-seat arena. That assumes Baltimore will never lure a major league basketball or hockey franchise, which would require at least 17,000 seats.

But several development groups said it would be unwise to close off such options, and they are proposing a major-league-size arena.

Hale Properties LLC and Greenberg Gibbons Commercial Corp. The group proposes a 17,000- to 19,000-seat arena on 28 acres adjacent to the 1st Mariner Bank headquarters in Canton.

There are some interesting other locations mentioned, though. Like next to MD General Hospital near Mt. Vernon and a parking lot on the north side of Penn Station. Both of those locations seem intriguing.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
It looks like a couple of the developers that submitted bids get it as far as size goes. Oddly enough' date=' one of them is Hale, who picked the worst possible spot to build an arena IMO.
Hale Properties LLC and Greenberg Gibbons Commercial Corp. The group proposes a 17,000- to 19,000-seat arena on 28 acres adjacent to the 1st Mariner Bank headquarters in Canton.

There are some interesting other locations mentioned, though. Like next to MD General Hospital near Mt. Vernon and a parking lot on the north side of Penn Station. Both of those locations seem intriguing.

Can you get lotsa people in and out of these places in a hurry?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Can you get lotsa people in and out of these places in a hurry?

Should be able to, although I imagine some minor infrastructure improvements may be necessary.

MD General Site

Metro Station 2 blocks away

Light Rail stop 2 blocks away

Easy access to MLK Blvd, with connecting access to I-95

Not far from JFX (I-83)

Penn Station Site

Light Rail stop at Station

MARC stop at Station

Easy access to JFX

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
There are some interesting other locations mentioned' date=' though. Like next to MD General Hospital near Mt. Vernon and a parking lot on the north side of Penn Station. Both of those locations seem intriguing.[/quote']

Those two sites are pretty intriguing, if for no other reason than the fact that they would really test the hypothesis that a sports/entertainment venue can spur revitalization of an area. I'm assuming the Mt Vernon site would be to the north of MD General and therefore not really in Mt Vernon. Mt Vernon doesn't really need revitalization but the area to the north and west could use some help. As for Penn Station, the City has been trying to spur development in that "Station North" neighborhood for a few years now.

I would definitely prefer those sites to Canton. That idea won't be as bad as it seems now when Canton Crossing is done and there is more density over there, but it will still be disconnected from any sort of public transit for years. It will have I-95 and nothing more. Ed Hale seems to be trying to build his own little mini-city rather than just a neighborhood within the city.

I still think the current site may be the best, though. The CBD could really use a shot in the arm, especially with all of the movement over to Harbor East and Canton.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/local/baltimore_city/bal-te.md.arena14nov14,0,578652.story?coll=bal_tab01_layout

The developers and their proposals include:

• Hale Properties LLC and Greenberg Gibbons Commercial Corp. The group proposes a 17,000- to 19,000-seat arena on 28 acres adjacent to the 1st Mariner Bank headquarters in Canton.

Edwin F. Hale Sr., president and chief executive officer of First Mariner Bancorp, said he is negotiating with Exxon to purchase the 28-acre site, which is off Boston Street and close to Interstate 95. The location would make the arena easy to reach from the suburbs, Hale said.

He said building a new arena on the current arena site is unworkable because the Baltimore Blast indoor soccer team, which Hale owns, and other acts would have nowhere to go during construction. "What happens to [the Blast], and what happens to Ringling Bros. and Disney on Ice?" Hale asked. "There is literally no place around here to go. We would just be damaged."

• Struever Bros. Eccles & Rouse and Capital Venture Group LLC. The group proposes four possible sites for a new arena: the current location, Port Covington, on Eutaw Street near Maryland General Hospital, and the parking lot north of Penn Station.

Struever is most interested in building an arena in or near downtown, taking advantage of transit in place and capitalizing on the city's revitalization. Janet Marie Smith, Struever's vice president of planning and development, said that the current arena location is "ideal," and that an alternative venue could be found for the Blast and other acts during construction.

But if that's unacceptable, she said the Penn Station location is intriguing. It's close to mass transit and the Jones Falls Expressway and could help spur development in that area.

"With the Station North Arts District being as burgeoning and vibrant as it can be, we'd love to be able to fuel that," Smith said. "And whether an arena's the right thing or not, I don't know, but it's one idea."

The Port Covington location, in an industrial area south of Federal Hill, would allow for development beyond the arena. But Smith said an urban location is more appealing, following the model of Oriole Park. "This city has pioneered the whole movement of putting urban entertainment facilities downtown as part of rejuvenating the city," she said. "It would be such a shame to go against that grain."

The size of the Struever arena is undetermined, but Smith said the group is open to a project in the 17,000- to 19,000-seat range.

• Cormony Development LLC, Harrison Development LLC and Team 52 Development LLC. This group is already developing Gateway South, an 11-acre sports-themed project from Russell Street to the Middle Branch waterfront, and proposes putting a new arena there.

The location is close to I-95 and Route 295 and links to the city's football and baseball stadiums, said Samuel Polakoff, managing director of Cormony Development. He plans to break ground next year on Gateway South, which would feature two large office buildings, shops, and a 90,000-square-foot sports complex with playing fields, indoor golf, a fitness center and swim club.

An arena would be a perfect fit, Polakoff said. But the city and state are also considering Gateway South as a potential location for a slots facility, which could complicate an arena proposal. Polakoff said he has not been involved in any slots discussions and is moving forward with the Gateway South master plan approved in September.

• Turner Development Group. The proposal would put a new arena on the northern end of the $1.4 billion Westport development, also on the Middle Branch of the Patapsco River in South Baltimore. The arena would have its own light rail stop, as well as close access to highways, said Patrick Turner, president of Turner Development Group. He said the arena would enliven the nightlife in Westport, and the development already planned would make the arena "a more exciting place." Westport has been approved to build 3 million square feet of office space, 2,000 residential units, a 500-room hotel and 300,000 square feet of retail.

He said the parking planned for the offices could be used by arena patrons at night.

• Arena Development Group LLC. The proposal suggests a new arena west of Lexington Market, in a block occupied by a parking garage. This proposal would also redevelop the current arena site as a mixed-use project with a hotel, retail and office space. The sale of those development rights would help pay for the new arena.

The group has hired the same architect and general contractor that built the MCI Center in the Chinatown neighborhood of Washington and says the revival of that neighborhood is a model for what a new arena could do in the Lexington Market area.

Efforts to reach two other groups - Pinnacle Properties & Development LLC, Garfield Traub Development LLC, and AEG; and White Rhino Development LLC - were not successful yesterday.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I still think the current site may be the best, though. The CBD could really use a shot in the arm, especially with all of the movement over to Harbor East and Canton.

I agree. If the Metro extension goes through (which is looking worse and worse by the day...post on that coming soon), then the Arena will be easily accessible by subway from both East (White Marsh) and West (Owings Mills). The Red Line looks like more of a priority than the Green Line extension, but even so, I don't see how Canton is a better location than the current one. The Arena is close to the Camden Yards complex and really not far from 395.

I know Ed Hale has a ton of power, but his site could be used far more effectively than as an arena and a huge parking lot.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I agree. If the Metro extension goes through (which is looking worse and worse by the day...post on that coming soon), then the Arena will be easily accessible by subway from both East (White Marsh) and West (Owings Mills). The Red Line looks like more of a priority than the Green Line extension, but even so, I don't see how Canton is a better location than the current one. The Arena is close to the Camden Yards complex and really not far from 395.

I know Ed Hale has a ton of power, but his site could be used far more effectively than as an arena and a huge parking lot.

I kind of like the Lexington Market idea, too. The current site and LM are choices 1 and 2 for me, personally. After that, Gateway South, Station North, Westport, and Mount Vernon are all in a jumble. I definitely do not want to see it in Port Covington or Canton. I guess we will find out more in the coming weeks about the specifics of the plans.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There needs to be a rule that any viable site must be at least on TWO current bus lines; preferably, the more public transport a site has access to (bus lines, subway, light rail, and MARC, in that order of priority), the more it has in its favor. Right now, and for the medium term (and possibly long term), buses play an integral role in public transport in Baltimore. As a Baltimore native, I'm telling you, most the time if I can't get there via bus I'm just not getting there. I'm really hoping the MTA is being consulted by all parties on this.

Canton is technically accessible via bus, but its a bit of a pain in the ass to get to, unlike everything in the main downtown area.

The current site would be ideal, but what would you do for the two years where Baltimore doesn't have a major arena? In the last year we've had everyone from the Blast to the circus to Tool perform there, that's a lot of money lost in the short-term to smaller venues outside downtown (and possibly outside the city) while construction occurs.

Lexington Market is very, very intriguing. Accessible from an ass-load of bus lines, with immediate subway AND LR access, and a lot of small struggling businesses in the area that could use the shot in the arm.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
There needs to be a rule that any viable site must be at least on TWO current bus lines; preferably, the more public transport a site has access to (bus lines, subway, light rail, and MARC, in that order of priority), the more it has in its favor. Right now, and for the medium term (and possibly long term), buses play an integral role in public transport in Baltimore. As a Baltimore native, I'm telling you, most the time if I can't get there via bus I'm just not getting there. I'm really hoping the MTA is being consulted by all parties on this.

I don't know what I'm talking about here, but I don't think busses are gonna do it. The whole point of "mass transit" is getting the masses to transit. I think that, for the most part, only city-folk even think about riding a bus. I don't think folks from the burbs would do it. Trains, sure. But busses? I don't think so. Dunno why, not sure what it is, but I think there's lotsa people who'd ride trains that wouldn't catch a bus nomatter what. (Am I being stupid about this?)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I don't know what I'm talking about here, but I don't think busses are gonna do it. The whole point of "mass transit" is getting the masses to transit. I think that, for the most part, only city-folk even think about riding a bus. I don't think folks from the burbs would do it. Trains, sure. But busses? I don't think so. Dunno why, not sure what it is, but I think there's lotsa people who'd ride trains that wouldn't catch a bus nomatter what. (Am I being stupid about this?)

You're right, but I don't see what your point is. The original reason the transit talk got started on this board is that Baltimore has laughably inadequate transit. The current Arena is a half-block away from a subway stop and not much further from a Light Rail stop, but that means very little because relatively few people - especially people who could afford to buy tickets to Arena events - use those services.

NOW is absolutely right, although unfortunately I don't think this City's leadership cares one bit whether people can reach anything by bus. Ed Hale's site is only being considered because 1.) He's Ed Hale, and 2.) it's right off I-95. In fact, it would probably get its own EXIT off 95. The Red Line, which won't be built for another 15 years, if then, will probably go near it. But it's being built for car commuters, not transit riders.

As far as the City is concerned, if you can't afford a car, you don't matter. And if you can afford one but don't want to, then you're just insane.

Over the past month or so, it's become more clear than ever to me that Baltimore will just never get their heads out of their nether regions regarding transit. They don't understand the interconnectedness of the economy and efficient public transit. They just don't get it. It pisses me off so much, but I'm only 25 and I'm close to the breaking point with this crap.

Sorry, I'll re-post this in the rants section. ;)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
You're right, but I don't see what your point is. The original reason the transit talk got started on this board is that Baltimore has laughably inadequate transit. The current Arena is a half-block away from a subway stop and not much further from a Light Rail stop, but that means very little because relatively few people - especially people who could afford to buy tickets to Arena events - use those services.

NOW is absolutely right, although unfortunately I don't think this City's leadership cares one bit whether people can reach anything by bus. Ed Hale's site is only being considered because 1.) He's Ed Hale, and 2.) it's right off I-95. In fact, it would probably get its own EXIT off 95. The Red Line, which won't be built for another 15 years, if then, will probably go near it. But it's being built for car commuters, not transit riders.

As far as the City is concerned, if you can't afford a car, you don't matter. And if you can afford one but don't want to, then you're just insane.

Over the past month or so, it's become more clear than ever to me that Baltimore will just never get their heads out of their nether regions regarding transit. They don't understand the interconnectedness of the economy and efficient public transit. They just don't get it. It pisses me off so much, but I'm only 25 and I'm close to the breaking point with this crap.

Sorry, I'll re-post this in the rants section. ;)

My point is that I think the suggestion that the city big-wigs issue some requirement that it be on at least 2 bus lines won't make much difference. To me, that would be a perfect example of dumb bureaucracy. Whether it should make a difference or not is really beside the point. Because it won't. Because most of the people you wanna get using mass transit just won't ride busses.

I agree the city's probably hosed about mass transit, but I don't see what they can do about it. Subways cost too much. The only reason DC got a good one is because Congress paid for it, and they're not gonna pay for Baltimore to get one unless there's a dramatically different national attitude about mass transit, the federal gov't, etc. Without that, I think the only possible prayer the city has is light rail, and I don't know what those choices might be. I don't know how much old RR R-O-W is left sitting around. If they can't make light rail work, I don't think there's anything they can do, really. I just don't believe bus lines are gonna do it, nomatter how anybody tries to sell it. I think there's zero chance of that working.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&geocode=&time=&date=&ttype=&q=N.+Greene+St.+and+W.+Lexington+Ave.,+Baltimore&sll=39.291722,-76.622719&sspn=0.004185,0.010042&ie=UTF8&t=h&z=16&om=1

I guess this is where they mean for the Lexington Market site. Only two blocks over and up from the present arena, and six from Camden Yards, and two blocks from the Metro and Light Rail and probably a few bus routes. Not bad.

I think there or the present arena site would be best.

And as for mass transit, a subway might be expensive, but it is something that HAS to happen. You can only add so many lanes to 95 or raise tolls so much before people start moving elsewhere.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


Orioles Information


Orioles News and Information

Daily Organizational Boxscores
News

Tony's Takes

Orioles Roster Resource

Orioles Prospect Information

2018 End of Season Top 30 Prospects List

Prospect Scouting Reports

Statistics

2019 Orioles Stats

2019 Orioles Minor League Stats

Baseball Savant Stats






×
×
  • Create New...