Jump to content
Going Underground

Scouts take on Orioles from Pressbox

Recommended Posts

That screams PA to me. It screams that AM knew the limitations (i.e., PA issues) that he was getting into when he took the job, and he believes (or at least did) he can make it work nothwithstanding the same.

Regarding some others posters take on not pointing the figure at AM in terms of player selection, if JJ isn't getting the job done then it's AM's job to recognize that and fix it. I'm not saying whether this is or isn't the case, but the buck stops with AM if it is.

I would also note that Klein seems to be suggesting that JJ doesn't take enough toolsy players, which I know has also been an issue discussed on this board.

How does it scream anything? And how is Joe Klein supposed to know what the "lines of authority" are? Or the parameters that AM was given to work with?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
How does it scream anything? And how is Joe Klein supposed to know what the "lines of authority" are? Or the parameters that AM was given to work with?

Maybe I'm wrong, but I found this quote some what telling "We all understand when we take a job what the lines of authority are. Andy knows he can work within those lines." Klein is a former big league executive and I assume that how much control various owners, including PA, extend over their respective teams is some what known within the industry. In light of PA's reputation and prior actions, I found it interesting that Klein put those statements out there. Am I speculating here -- sure. Given that fact, in hindsight perhaps "screams" is too strong of a word.

Edited by Shopay

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3-4 pitchers a year would be a normal output. Of those, on average about one will eventually pitch in 150 big league games or throw 500 innings. An average team should produce one guy every other year who eventually wins 50+ games. But there is only one active pitcher in MLB who has won 50+ games who debuted with the Orioles: Erik Bedard.

Sorry. Not totally following you. We're evaluating JJ, yes? It would be very tough for someone drafted by him to have reached 50+ wins or the other thresholds you list.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Did anyone who follows OH learn anything reading this article we haven't already discussed over and over before? The message will remain the same. Until AM starts driving his car (The Orioles) the speed limit the team will lag behind. There is no urgency with any of his decisions. None. Did you hear his interview yesterday discussing the choosing of a new manager. He gave no indication they were even remotely close to making a decision. It's irritating to listen to him sometimes. All he had to say was we are making progress and I can't tell you when a decision will be made. Period. Maybe bringing Showalter and Ripken into the organization will create some urgency. How many times have we discussed the number of scouts we have compared to other clubs? The team made a decsion 4 or 5 years ago to go heavy on pitchers in the draft because everyone said we were weak in pitching in the farm system. We just went a little overboard and didn't mix a few hitters in enough early rounds which is why we are lacking with position players in our system. I think we are better than some people say we are and we'll find out soon enough.

You can be sure Showalter knows about major league farm systems and how many scouts we should have and Ripken does having played under several Oriole owners previously. I think the number of scouts started declining when Hoffberger sold the team to Williams. If it was after Williams please correct me.

Changes are coming....hopefully pretty soon. Maybe we need to get some stronger coffee brewed in the warehouse or some gatorade. The team seems to be hustling more recently. Now we need the front office to do the same thing.

I will be at OP on Saturday to hear AM speak to the season ticket holders and hope I get a chance to ask a question. I am trying to decide on which question to ask since I have several. I probably should make a post on this subject. Anyone have any $64,000 questions they would like answered?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Did anyone who follows OH learn anything reading this article we haven't already discussed over and over before?

This is the first time I've heard anyone say that Michael Ohlman can't hit, catch or throw. The part about hitting seems pretty absurd, given that Ohlman debuted in the Sally League as a 19 year old with a grand total of 4 games of professional experience. By the way, Ohlman hasn't played in a week - anyone know what's up with that?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
What kills me about the Rowell thing is that virtually every scout pegged him as the best hitting prospect in the draft. But you can't really argue with much else.

No, I can argue with plenty else. Snyder would be a pretty solid catching prospect had he stuck there IMO, and I'd be a whole hell of a lot mroe excited about him, but injuries tore him down. Rowell WAS a great athlete once upon a time, but guess what, sometimes physical projection can work against you I guess....The Coffey comment is stupid to me because the kid hasn't even had a chance to come back yet 100%, and he WILL come back 100%, lets make the judgement if we overpaid after we have a chance to see what he has.

I just have problems with what is said here, it mainly talks about position players, no %$*# we don't draft many athletic position players, shoot until recently we didn't draft ANY good position players.

Yes we could have done better, but really, who couldn't have done better other than the Sox, and even they will probably say they coulda done better. We have a pretty good player development system with pitching. We lack good position players until recently, but I think Welty is quite a gem as a later rounder who wasn't even overslot if I remember right. Caleb Joseph is solid, Townsend is gonna be pretty solid for us, Webb is a good later round pick who has very good hitting tools.

Hind sight is 20-20, but I just am not gonna jump on this ship, I'm sorry. I wish we had drafted more premium talent at times, but also at times, we have done well when others haven't, lets sit back and see what we get. But bashing Ohlman and Coffey after a half a season is just reactionary IMO.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I understand our system is a pitching heaving farm system

But this scout pretty much says we don't have any good position prospects.

That is something I have to disagree with

Josh Bell and Brandon Synder (AAA)

Tyler Henson, Brandon Waring, Joseph Mohoney and Ryan Adams (AA)

Avery, Jerome Hoes, Bill Rowell, Kipp Schultz, Townsend, Michael Ohlman (A)

Jonathan Schoop, Dudley Lendora, and Tanner Murphy

So we have some good position prospects and this year we drafted Machado so

that will also add more depth. The main goal for now and the for see able future is overslot as many position players as we can this draft and the next couple of drafts and sign more international players like Schoop and Lendora to fill out the system

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The truth hurts.

Some people can't accept the truth.

Just a few thoughts that pop into my head....

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Sorry. Not totally following you. We're evaluating JJ, yes? It would be very tough for someone drafted by him to have reached 50+ wins or the other thresholds you list.

Of course I do not expect J.J. to have produced any 50-game winners yet. But it is reasonable for 3-4 pitchers per year to be graduating from our farm system, and at least one of those a year should be someone with staying power. We won't know for a couple more years who stuck and who didn't from the pitchers who graduated in 2009. It certainly seems likely to prove to be an above average class for the O's. Note that Tillman and Bergesen were not drafted by Jordan. Matusz, Hernandez and Berken were.

My comment about the O's only producing one 50-game winner since 1998 was more just a commentary on the overall strength of the farm system over the last 12 years, not a criticism of Jordan. It reflects more on his predecessors.

Edited by Frobby

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Another research tidbit: the median age of players debuting in the major leagues is 24 years old. Moreover, if you look at the players who, several years later, are among the leaders in a debut class in games played or other criteria, the vast majority of those players were 24 or younger when they debuted. For example, from the debut class of 2003 there are 17 players who have made the all star team at least once. Of those 17, only four debuted at 25 or older -- Jose Contreras (31), Hideki Matsui (28), J.J. Putz (26) and Jose Valverde (25). Of those, Contreras and Matsui were playing in high level leagues elsewhere before becoming major leaguers.

I mention this because it gives some context for judging drafting and player development. Jordan's first draft was in 2005. With few exceptions, the players drafted in that class are now 23 or older (Erbe, who was 17 when drafted, is an exception). So, by next year, it's pretty likely that anyone from that class who is ever going to be a good major leaguer will have debuted in the major leagues, and the books can be closed on that draft. From that class so far: Garrett Olson, Nolan Reimold, David Hernandez. Possibly still to come: Brandon Snyder, Brandon Erbe, Chorye Spoone, Pat Egan (who did not sign in '05 and was re-drafted in '06). I'd like to think that all four of those guys will debut in the majors some time in 2011. Note, by the way, that Reimold was 25 when he debuted.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
The truth hurts.

Some people can't accept the truth.

Just a few thoughts that pop into my head....

I mean, what truth? We already know the system is slanted towards pitching. BUT, if you had a OH poster who just started a thread bashing JJ and saying that Ohlman can't hit catch or throw because he was playing in a league way over his head and Coffey was a horrid decision because he isn't back yet, HE would get bashed for being reactionary. But because this is an "anonymous" scout, suddenly its the truth?

I just don't buy it. I am happy with the direction our positional prospects are going(Machado, Narron, Hoes, Avery, Schoop, Leonora, Webb, Hoppy, Welty, Joseph, Bell, Veloz, Mummey, Townsend). Its a heck of a lot better right now than it was.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
http://web.minorleaguebaseball.com/milb/stats/stats.jsp?pos=&sid=milb&t=p_pbp&pid=475728

.760 OPS with an OBP at .354. OPS over .900 in his last 10 games. Still an awefull amount of SO, but definite improvement.

At 21 years old, way -way- too early to call him a bust.

No, its not too early. He's in his third consecutive year at A+ ball and still only has an OPS that wouldn't get him even considered for promotion if he was in his first go-around.

He may be able to work his way back from the dead and become something, but there is absolutely no doubt that he is currently a failed prospect. He is a bust. Any future success from him would not be him fulfilling his huge promise, but rather him bouncing back from being a failed former #1 draft pick. Sort of like Lou Montanez or Scott Moore.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3-4 pitchers a year would be a normal output. Of those, on average about one will eventually pitch in 150 big league games or throw 500 innings. An average team should produce one guy every other year who eventually wins 50+ games. But there is only one active pitcher in MLB who has won 50+ games who debuted with the Orioles: Erik Bedard.

Frobby, where are you getting these stats? Producing 6-8 debuting players a year for the average team seems a bit much given that many guys have multiple call-ups and many contending teams wouldn't have the need to integrate that many guys.

I am curious as to where the data is coming from so that I can evaluate it better.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Why are people so defensive over the obvious poor results of things?

You can defend it all you want but at the end of the day, the results speak for themselves.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


Orioles Information


Orioles News and Information

Daily Organizational Boxscores
News

Tony's Takes

Orioles Roster Resource

Orioles Prospect Information

2018 End of Season Top 30 Prospects List

Prospect Scouting Reports

Statistics

2019 Orioles Stats

2019 Orioles Minor League Stats

Baseball Savant Stats






×
×
  • Create New...