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Matt Angle verses Adam Jones

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I would be utterly shocked if Angle put up a .700 OPS. He isn't even doing that in Norfolk, so chances are that he won't do it in Baltimore. Maybe four or five years down the road, but certainly not in 2011.

I love Angle, but he's become extremely overhyped.

How can a player who has received no hype, be overhyped?

Angle is hitting .321 with a .743 OPS in July. You may wish to believe that his .611 OPS in June was more indicative of his true talent. I wish to believe that it was an adjustment after the quick promotion from AA to AAA. Angle skipped AA, virtually.

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I don't think comparing the two is the point. Comparing the two obviously Jones will come out on top and there won't be much arguing against it. However, Angle + a good young SS or a power hitting 1B might trump just Jones.

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Yeah, I went back and edited the previous post. That was pretty dumb of me and I should have been called out on it.

Still, the basic point remains the same. Even if you think Jones never improves, that player is likely superior to the player Angle ever becomes.

Unless you think Jones is going to bring back some talent that makes Angle tolerable as Jones' replacement, I do not get the point.

What is it you think you are going to get back for Jones, to make Angle tolerable as his replacement?

For the record, I do not think it is crazy to think that Angle might put up the line you suggested in '11. I think it is crazy to think it is likely. I think it is crazy to think Angle's track record as a player comes close to comparing to Jones.

I think it is crazy to think the return for Jones, plus Angle would be better than just keeping Jones.

You ask about actual reality and production. Good, let us stick to that.

Jones = 1,500 Major League at-bats, a .738 career OPS, a All Star Game, a Gold Glove, 3 months in the past year with an OPS above .930, 25 on August 1st.

Angle = 200 at bats in AAA with an OPS under .700, a .714 OPS at Frederick in '09, and awesome production at Bowie in '10 over 60 at-bats, 25 in September.

Well, I've posed the question to you many times and you still haven't asnwered. If Angle puts up a .700 OPS with a .370 OBP and Jones puts up a .780 Line with a .320 OPS, and factoring in defense and baserunning, who is the more valuable player? Is it close?

For the 20th time. Angle has put up a .700 OPS or better every step of the way. His first month at AAA, after virtually skipping AA, was down. In July, he's hitting .321 with a .743 OPS.

Mentioning Adam Jones' gold glove is laughable. The stats show that he's below average and everyone on this site who watches him play, realizes that he's slipped there since his rookie year. For whatever reason, he just hasn't been that good out there the last two years.

What would I get back for Jones? A couple of weeks ago I started a thread and posed two trades. One for Justin Smoak (before he was traded) and another for Alcides Escobar, the SS with the Brewers. Those are the types of players I would try for, both at positions of need.

I would try to upgrade the defense and improve the plate discipline of this team by getting players who are either great defenders, show great plate discipline, or both. Right now, Adam Jones fits neither of those categories, IMO. Alcides Escobar is supposed to be a great defender and he has some upside with the bat, although he'll probably never be a high walk guy. Matt Angle is "reportedly" plus with the glove and has always shown good patience in the minors. Hence, what brought me to this idea in the first place.

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What I find funny is that RZ wants to get rid of Jones, in part because of plate discipline, and then says we should look to move him for a guy like Escobar..he of the zero plate discipline as well.

And if we traded Jones, Pie should be the starter in CF and we should get a big bat for LF. Angle can be the 4th OFer and if Pie continues to get hurt and Angle shows he is a capable OFer, then we shall see where to go from there.

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Well, I've posed the question to you many times and you still haven't asnwered. If Angle puts up a .700 OPS with a .370 OBP and Jones puts up a .780 Line with a .320 OPS, and factoring in defense and baserunning, who is the more valuable player? Is it close?

For the 20th time. Angle has put up a .700 OPS or better every step of the way. His first month at AAA, after virtually skipping AA, was down. In July, he's hitting .321 with a .743 OPS.

Mentioning Adam Jones' gold glove is laughable. The stats show that he's below average and everyone on this site who watches him play, realizes that he's slipped there since his rookie year. For whatever reason, he just hasn't been that good out there the last two years.

What would I get back for Jones? A couple of weeks ago I started a thread and posed two trades. One for Justin Smoak (before he was traded) and another for Alcides Escobar, the SS with the Brewers. Those are the types of players I would try for, both at positions of need.

I would try to upgrade the defense and improve the plate discipline of this team by getting players who are either great defenders, show great plate discipline, or both. Right now, Adam Jones fits neither of those categories, IMO. Alcides Escobar is supposed to be a great defender and he has some upside with the bat, although he'll probably never be a high walk guy. Matt Angle is "reportedly" plus with the glove and has always shown good patience in the minors. Hence, what brought me to this idea in the first place.

Since you dodged the question before.....Why should we think Angle will hit for a high average and draw walks if he shows zero power? Teams will challenge him.

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What I find funny is that RZ wants to get rid of Jones, in part because of plate discipline, and then says we should look to move him for a guy like Escobar..he of the zero plate discipline as well.

And if we traded Jones, Pie should be the starter in CF and we should get a big bat for LF. Angle can be the 4th OFer and if Pie continues to get hurt and Angle shows he is a capable OFer, then we shall see where to go from there.

Read my previous post. I know that Escobar is not an on base guy, although he looks like an on bae machine compared to Jones. He's also in his first year. Geat discipline or plate discipline. Preferably both.

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Since you dodged the question before.....Why should we think Angle will hit for a high average and draw walks if he shows zero power? Teams will challenge him.

You don't think AAA pitchers can throw fastballs for strikes? He's drawing enough walks all along the way in the minors. The walks might go down or they might not. Can you prove your theory that they will go down?

BTW, I'm not dodging any questions. I'm answering like 3 or 4 different people who are disagreeing with me.

Chone Figgins has 12 doubles, 1 triple, and ZERO homers this year, and yet he's walked 54 times. How do you explain that? Are ML pitchers stupid?

Elvis Andrus has 11 doubles, 2 triples, ZERO homers and 46 walks? How can he be walking so much?

Edited by RZNJ

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Read my previous post. I know that Escobar is not an on base guy, although he looks like an on bae machine compared to Jones. He's also in his first year. Geat discipline or plate discipline. Preferably both.

Well, he had no plate discipline in the minors either.

His value, offensively, is going to be tied to a high BA...If he can't do that, then he is going to struggle to be a league average SS unless he is an Ozzie Smith level defensive player.

And with his poor power, he may struggle to do just that.

Now, that doesn't mean he can't improve...As you point out, he is in his first year but he does turn 24 this december. Not that he is old or anything but his time is starting to run out for him to start to develop more power..Probably only has another year or 2 to show that he can at least be a 30+ double guy.

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You don't think AAA pitchers can throw fastballs for strikes? He's drawing enough walks all along the way in the minors. The walks might go down or they might not. Can you prove your theory that they will go down?

Are you really comparing what a AAA pitcher can do to a ML pitcher?

Do you really think pitchers are going to be careful at this level with a guy that struggles to have 30-35 XBH?

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BTW....Jones is probably better suited for LF. Maybe Angle proves he can beat out Pie in the long run?

I will say this though...I would rather see Jones traded than moved to LF. As the team is currently constructed, I do feel that Pie in CF and Jones in LF is better and if they decide to not trade Jones and Pie stays healthy, that is the way it should be aligned IMO...However, I would prefer dealing Jones as Cfer than keeping him as a LFer...assuming he has a lot of value as a CFer, which I would guess he still does.

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As I said, Jones has always been overrated defensively. He has good range, not outstanding. He has great arm strength, limited accuracy.

If he plays back, he can stay in CF and be better than most.

As far as his bat-speed, we will agree to disagree. He has poor pitch recognition, but when he locks in on a fastball he gets his bat through the zone quicker than most. I'm not saying he is Sheffield, but I would say it is better than good if not tremendous.

Jones has a .738 career OPS, and a .746 OPS in 2010. Yes, his floor is what he is doing now.

Jones, who again is 1 month older than Angle, is closing in on 1,500 at-bats in the Majors. His floor is established, what is to be determined is how much ceiling he has. As he has yet to reach his prime, and has posted an OPS above .930 in 3 separate months during the '09 and '10 seasons - there is plenty of reason to believe he has yet to reach his ceiling.

It is amazing to me you laugh at the idea that Jones '10 season is not his floor.

Angle, 1 month younger than Jones, has an OPS under .700 over his first 200 at-bats at AAA.

Yet somehow you are acting like these are comparable talents.

You would be better of sticking to the argument of Angle, plus what you get back for Jones is better vs. Jones alone. I would disagree with that as well, but at-least you can debate it.

I disagree. If he stays back he can be average at best. The question here is what is the value of Angle and the SS we get for AJ, combined? If the SS is a league average defender, and can put up a 740 OPS, like Jones currently, he will be a 3 WAR upgrade over Izzi, and Angle will be a 1 WAR downgrade at worst, compared to Jones. Edited by El Gordo

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Are you really comparing what a AAA pitcher can do to a ML pitcher?

Do you really think pitchers are going to be careful at this level with a guy that struggles to have 30-35 XBH?

Hey Bucco! Read my post on Elvis Andrus and Chone Figgins, two guys who don't have 30 XBH combined this year and yet, have drawn a lot of walks. Explain that one!!!!

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Hey Bucco! Read my post on Elvis Andrus and Chone Figgins, two guys who don't have 30 XBH combined this year and yet, have drawn a lot of walks. Explain that one!!!!

Really? This is your argument? Very sad.

Like these 2, Angle could be an exception to the rule but its not realistic to expect. He offers zero power. Its very easy to go through the history of baseball and find exceptions to the rule.

Here is your best case scenario for Angle:

http://espn.go.com/mlb/players/stats?playerId=6519

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Well, he had no plate discipline in the minors either.

His value, offensively, is going to be tied to a high BA...If he can't do that, then he is going to struggle to be a league average SS unless he is an Ozzie Smith level defensive player.

And with his poor power, he may struggle to do just that.

Now, that doesn't mean he can't improve...As you point out, he is in his first year but he does turn 24 this december. Not that he is old or anything but his time is starting to run out for him to start to develop more power..Probably only has another year or 2 to show that he can at least be a 30+ double guy.

First of all, I never said Escobar was the one and only guy to trade Jones for. However, Escobar did show some improvement in that area in the minors and currently has 24 walks in 318 AB's, which is below average but not horrible, escpecially considering that it's his first year. With a .797 OPS in AA and a .767 OPS in AAA, he showed at least a little potential with the bat. The offense is based on the hope that he becomes a .700 OPS guy, while providing stellar defense. His reputation for defense is high. The question is, is it warranted?

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