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Machado, Schoop, and Givens

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I don't want to be a downer, but I am not too excited about Givens yet. Yes I love his numbers, but he is a 20-year old at Aberdeen who was drafted out of high school (a little old for a guy with no college experience). Givens is the same age as Avery (who is in Bowie now at 20) and Hoes, who will both be in Bowie next year. Machado is over two years younger than Givens and Narron is about a year-and-a-half younger than Givens. Now, if Givens starts next season and Frederick and posts similar numbers to what he is doing now, then I will be very excited.

I am super excited about Machado though, he just seems to have that "it" factor. I am excited about Schoop too. Hopefully Tony is right and Schoop gets a chance to start at Frederick next year. A 19-year old, international shortstop prospect at Frederick would be exciting, as we never seem to have these sort of players in our system.

Tony, any chance we see Givens at 2B and Schoop at SS starting in Frederick next year?

I think your reasons for not being excited about Givens are all messed up. Givens might be the same age as Avery and Hoes, but how can you hold it against him that he didn't go through college? He's not old at all for the NY-Penn League and in the game I saw he was the best hitter on either team.

Now you can hold it against him that he was injured this year and that was disappointing, but I've seen a lot of Orioles minor league hitters over the years and few have impressed me right off the bat.

All I'm saying is that despite being a 19-year senior and despite holding out last year, and despite the injury, he's pretty far along as far as I can tell, a lot further than I expected to see.

As for Machado, it's hard not to like what you see . He's got all the tools to be special.

When it comes to next year, where the Orioles decide to play Givens and Schoop will determine where they start next season. I think it's a pretty good conclusion that Machado will start 2011 in Delmarva, and if Givens hits well next spring, I could see him getting jumped to Frederick to play short. As for Schoop, again, it was depend on where the Orioles see his future position.

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Hey Tony, you got to see them up close, if it's your move where do you play the 3 of them? I've seen a lot of back and forth over who gets moved where. Would you stagger the levels to keep someone playing at one position (I thought that was what you were getting at with Schoop) or if they could all play the same level which one do you give the defensive hierarchy to?

Hoping Manny stays at short, but I talked to a couple guys in the spring that were 50/50 on there or 3rd. Just trying to get a better idea on them defensively.

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Hey Tony, you got to see them up close, if it's your move where do you play the 3 of them? I've seen a lot of back and forth over who gets moved where. Would you stagger the levels to keep someone playing at one position (I thought that was what you were getting at with Schoop) or if they could all play the same level which one do you give the defensive hierarchy to?

Hoping Manny stays at short, but I talked to a couple guys in the spring that were 50/50 on there or 3rd. Just trying to get a better idea on them defensively.

I'm not Tony, but my guess on Manny is that we'll start to get a good read on him in 2012 or so. He should start putting on adult weight over the next couple of years. As for right now, he needs to play at short. He's got fluid actions and a strong arm, so he's good for now. I don't think he'll ever be an error-prone SS, given his very good defensive instincts, but he could fill out and slow down over the next few years.

I see three possible scenarios for Manny: (1) He fills out a bit but stays quick and athletic and sticks as an average defensive SS, (2) He fills out quite a bit and becomes a very good defensive 3B, (3) He fills out and slows down but this is overlooked by our development team because he doesn't make a lot of errors and looks smooth at SS. In scenario (3) he'd end up as a sort of Jeter-esque SS, one who looks good on the field and does well with what he gets to, but doesn't get to nearly enough.

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I'm not Tony, but my guess on Manny is that we'll start to get a good read on him in 2012 or so. He should start putting on adult weight over the next couple of years. As for right now, he needs to play at short. He's got fluid actions and a strong arm, so he's good for now. I don't think he'll ever be an error-prone SS, given his very good defensive instincts, but he could fill out and slow down over the next few years.

I see three possible scenarios for Manny: (1) He fills out a bit but stays quick and athletic and sticks as an average defensive SS, (2) He fills out quite a bit and becomes a very good defensive 3B, (3) He fills out and slows down but this is overlooked by our development team because he doesn't make a lot of errors and looks smooth at SS. In scenario (3) he'd end up as a sort of Jeter-esque SS, one who looks good on the field and does well with what he gets to, but doesn't get to nearly enough.

Yeah the scouts I talked to had about the same opinion but it's always different when you see them with your own eyes. I know we won't know for sure for a year or two, but I was just interested to get Tony's take since he's seen them more recently than people I talk to.

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I'm not Tony, but my guess on Manny is that we'll start to get a good read on him in 2012 or so. He should start putting on adult weight over the next couple of years. As for right now, he needs to play at short. He's got fluid actions and a strong arm, so he's good for now. I don't think he'll ever be an error-prone SS, given his very good defensive instincts, but he could fill out and slow down over the next few years.

I see three possible scenarios for Manny: (1) He fills out a bit but stays quick and athletic and sticks as an average defensive SS, (2) He fills out quite a bit and becomes a very good defensive 3B, (3) He fills out and slows down but this is overlooked by our development team because he doesn't make a lot of errors and looks smooth at SS. In scenario (3) he'd end up as a sort of Jeter-esque SS, one who looks good on the field and does well with what he gets to, but doesn't get to nearly enough.

If his bat is as projected I could live with scenario 3, at least for the first six/seven years in the majors.

Of course it would depend on what other options the O's have at SS and 3rd.

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I think your reasons for not being excited about Givens are all messed up. Givens might be the same age as Avery and Hoes, but how can you hold it against him that he didn't go through college? He's not old at all for the NY-Penn League and in the game I saw he was the best hitter on either team.

Now you can hold it against him that he was injured this year and that was disappointing, but I've seen a lot of Orioles minor league hitters over the years and few have impressed me right off the bat.

All I'm saying is that despite being a 19-year senior and despite holding out last year, and despite the injury, he's pretty far along as far as I can tell, a lot further than I expected to see.

As for Machado, it's hard not to like what you see . He's got all the tools to be special.

When it comes to next year, where the Orioles decide to play Givens and Schoop will determine where they start next season. I think it's a pretty good conclusion that Machado will start 2011 in Delmarva, and if Givens hits well next spring, I could see him getting jumped to Frederick to play short. As for Schoop, again, it was depend on where the Orioles see his future position.

Tony you sure has changed your tune on Givens. Has he changed that drastically in the past month or so? Not doubting you, but this is a sudden 180 for your view of him before he got injured.

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Hey Tony, you got to see them up close, if it's your move where do you play the 3 of them? I've seen a lot of back and forth over who gets moved where. Would you stagger the levels to keep someone playing at one position (I thought that was what you were getting at with Schoop) or if they could all play the same level which one do you give the defensive hierarchy to?

Hoping Manny stays at short, but I talked to a couple guys in the spring that were 50/50 on there or 3rd. Just trying to get a better idea on them defensively.

The only problem is I didn't see Givens play in the field and I haven't seen Schoop live yet. I would stagger them though. Either Givens or Schoop probably needs to start at Frederick with Givens being the most likely guy due to his age (21). However, I'll talk to a few guys during and after the mini camp to get a better idea.

I think there's no doubt Machado is playing SS next year though but it will remain to be seen if he can stay there as his body fills out.

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The only problem is I didn't see Givens play in the field and I haven't seen Schoop live yet. I would stagger them though. Either Givens or Schoop probably needs to start at Frederick with Givens being the most likely guy due to his age (21). However, I'll talk to a few guys during and after the mini camp to get a better idea.

I think there's no doubt Machado is playing SS next year though but it will remain to be seen if he can stay there as his body fills out.

Tony, is there a chance we see Manny in the bigs in late 2012 or sometime early in 2013? Pull out your cystal ball please.

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Tony you sure has changed your tune on Givens. Has he changed that drastically in the past month or so? Not doubting you, but this is a sudden 180 for your view of him before he got injured.

I don't remember saying anything bad about Givens just that he needed to play and his injury sure didn't help him any.

I was actually pleasantly surprised by what I saw during BP and in the game Sunday when it came to his bat. Probably the most impressive situation was when he was down 1-2 after swinging through two 96 MPH fastballs, one up and out over the plate and one down and in on his hands. The next pitch was a 95 MPH fastball down and in on his hands again and Givens brought his hands in, got the head of the bat to the ball and inside outted a line drive to right-center for single. That was very, very impressive.

I always look to see how guys hit against plus stuff and that bat against a 95-96 MPH right-hander was pretty darn impressive.

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Tony, is there a chance we see Manny in the bigs in late 2012 or sometime early in 2013? Pull out your cystal ball please.

That's hard to say since I've only seen him in one game and one BP session. Saying that, he's pretty special and as long as he keeps his head on straight, I think he can move very quickly. I could see him in Baltimore sometime in 2013.

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I'm not Tony, but my guess on Manny is that we'll start to get a good read on him in 2012 or so. He should start putting on adult weight over the next couple of years. As for right now, he needs to play at short. He's got fluid actions and a strong arm, so he's good for now. I don't think he'll ever be an error-prone SS, given his very good defensive instincts, but he could fill out and slow down over the next few years.

I see three possible scenarios for Manny: (1) He fills out a bit but stays quick and athletic and sticks as an average defensive SS, (2) He fills out quite a bit and becomes a very good defensive 3B, (3) He fills out and slows down but this is overlooked by our development team because he doesn't make a lot of errors and looks smooth at SS. In scenario (3) he'd end up as a sort of Jeter-esque SS, one who looks good on the field and does well with what he gets to, but doesn't get to nearly enough.

Great post here. Honestly, this is about as accurate an assessment as anyone can give on him.

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The only problem is I didn't see Givens play in the field and I haven't seen Schoop live yet. I would stagger them though. Either Givens or Schoop probably needs to start at Frederick with Givens being the most likely guy due to his age (21). However, I'll talk to a few guys during and after the mini camp to get a better idea.

I think there's no doubt Machado is playing SS next year though but it will remain to be seen if he can stay there as his body fills out.

Cool, thanks. I was hoping two would make it to Frederick next year so I could see them, might even get a trip out to the 'Bury to see Machado. I figured they'd leave him at SS in the lower minors at least, but a couple of my friends that work in the business and I were having a nice debate over his footwork at SS and 3B recently, so it's got me thinking.

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Cool, thanks. I was hoping two would make it to Frederick next year so I could see them, might even get a trip out to the 'Bury to see Machado. I figured they'd leave him at SS in the lower minors at least, but a couple of my friends that work in the business and I were having a nice debate over his footwork at SS and 3B recently, so it's got me thinking.

Honestly, if I was forced to use the crystal ball, I would say he's not going to have enough range to be a good major league defensive shortstop. This means he's going to have to become Cal Ripken smart when it comes to positioning. The good news is I see all the other skills needed to be a good shortstop including plenty or arm, soft hands and good instincts.

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Honestly, if I was forced to use the crystal ball, I would say he's not going to have enough range to be a good major league defensive shortstop. This means he's going to have to become Cal Ripken smart when it comes to positioning. The good news is I see all the other skills needed to be a good shortstop including plenty or arm, soft hands and good instincts.

Yep, I think I agree with you, just need to see him to really make up my mind. Hope Cal decides to take an interest and talk with him a bit about the art of positioning, but I can't see him having the range at SS to really help at the ML level, I'm hoping though. Having good hands at SS is probably the most important of my personal criteria though, so that's great to hear!

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One thing that has always stuck with me is something I recall reading a few years ago about players with question marks about whether they can stay at a certain position(such as Machado sticking at SS or a small framed pitcher like Pedro Martinez sticking in the rotation despite nasty raw stuff). That is that the truely special players overcome those "weaknesses" or "question marks" and make those "issues" a strength.

We shall see what type of talent Machado really is soon enough. But the thing with physical projection is that is really is an inexact science. I'd swear that Tim Beckham was considered a sure bet(as close to it as can be) to stick at SS, but the year following his #1 overall pick, it was already noted that he had filled out tremendously in his trunk and was noticeably slower already in just a season.

Personally, IMO the most realistic scenario we have is scenario 3 in regard to RVA's post......

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