Pickles

They'll get something in Ortiz' range, but they won't get a guy who is just a clear cut level above, unless we give it to them with Cowser or Kjerstad. We on this board have spent weeks negotiating against ourselves. Let them go play with their 19 year old A ball pitchers and see how that works out for them.

Joey Ortiz is the best thing they can get. They can f off and cry more.

Do you really need "evidence" to tell you that if your bullpen pitches less innings you'll be able to distribute those innings more easily to your best relieves and thus get better results? But, yes, I am actually referring to acquiring a starter that would push the guys in the 5th starter mix now into the bullpen and strengthening it. There's going to be a fifth starter. As it stands now it will be Wells, Irvin, or Hall, in order of most likely imo. Bringing in someone to push them all to the pen is going to make the pen better.

I guess the ones where you were basically 100% right last offseason. LOL.

You don't think pushing Wells or Hall into the bullpen improves it?

Don't ask logical questions. We must trade Kremer. That will improve our team. That's the conclusion. Now we just have to muster the "facts" to support that.

Yes, the old "caring about winning" by making your team demonstrably worse. You've been making those arguments for a couple of years now. They do not gain in persuasion.

I think the starting pitching argument is stronger because if you upgrade the rotation you simultaneously upgrade the bullpen.

Obviously trading your 3rd best starter is the best way to upgrade your starting rotation.

I don't think you know what worst case scenario meeans.

Fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom.

I can't see TB and BAL being trading partners. The downside of losing a trade badly is just too great for either team.

I agree. I don't think anybody is lying, but it doesn't make a ton of sense. What seems likeliest to me is that Povich was informed of the White Sox attempts to get him at the deadline, and told the O's were not interested in trading him for Cease. I could see that being said.

LOL. The bolded is essentially calling him a liar and saying he's full of poop. Not that I have any desire to get in the middle of you two going at it. Now that he's clarified a bit, I actually think it is possible the O's brass told Povich the White Sox were trying to get him and they weren't going to give in to that. So telling him, "You'll not going to be traded." I don't believe that. Telling him, "There's this specific deal in which you're a target but we aren't going to do it." Yeah, I can believe that.

That seems to line up with the rumours that Nebraskafan is posting in the Cease thread: Povich is made available to a new team that is one of the best in the league.

I've felt this way for decades, but I've never understood why people get so worked up, one way or another, when it comes to "insider information."

Pretty clearly he's said that. He's said HE might be eating crow because it's possible that Povich will be traded after all. Not for Cease, but another deal with another team. It's interesting to speculate what he's alluding to. Apparently the new team is "one of the best organizations in the league the last 8-9 years." Really, to me, that's a short list. LAD, ATL, HOU, and TBR. I'm not sure who else belongs on that list. Are of those teams interested in trading a starter?

You're so stubborn. LOL. There obviously is a cap already. 720K x 26. 18.8 million is the salary floor for a MLB franchise. You might want it to be higher. But it does exist.

I'm surprised Adley is still #1.

Yeah, if Cease was guaranteed to put up six wins that would change the equation dramatically. But he isn't. So it doesn't.

The O's are very likely to go to the playoffs the next two years anyway.

None of us know the future, so the best you can do is play the odds. The odds are that Cease is a moderate upgrade over Kremer for the next two years. It's highly debatable if two years of Cease is worth 4 years of Kremer. Throwing in to top 60 prospects on top is pure madness.

That's crazy to me. So you're willing to trade two top sixty prospects for a minor upgrade in the starting rotation for two years? It doesn't make sense on any level, unless you've convinced yourself the O's MUST do SOMETHING, and that something must be Dylan Cease.

I got it. I was responding in kind.

Sounds like you undervalue pitching.