Texas back in on vlad ...not happy with os offer

[Frobby]

I have always taken exception to the argument that Guerrero was unwilling to play in Baltimore.

That simply is not true, as his agents did provide a counter offer to Baltimore.

The Baltimore FO deemed it too expensive, and never moved off their offer.

Baltimore was not his first choice, but he was willing to play here - at what he determined the 'right price.' Eventually he signed for more $ per year than the O's offer.

Obviously a huge difference now is his age... but one similarity is that I think Vlad will come here for the 'right price', but that we are likely not his ideal option. I'm sure he would like to go a team that he thinks is more likely to contend. He will have to decide what matters most to him... playing everyday or playing PT with a more 'likely' contender.

Not accurate -- the O's started at 5/$65mm and eventually went to 6/$78mm. And when the Angels came in with their offer, after more than three weeks of discussions with the Orioles, Vlad didn't even give the O's an opportunity to counteroffer, he just informed them he had signed with the Angels.

I did not think the O's did a good job in that negotiation. But there is no doubt in my mind that Vlad had a strong preference not to play in Baltimore and jumped the moment he had a reasonable alternative.

[Frobby]

You are right... I had totally forgot about the O's raising their offer.

However, I think you hit the nail on the head when you stated that the O's raised their offer after sitting on it for 3 weeks.

Guerrero's agent's provided the counter to the $65M offer, and the O's waited and waited to make their counter because they deemed him the luxury.

As I said, I don't like the way the O's handled that negotiation. However, Vlad's agents' courteroffer of 8/$144 mm was so ridiculously high (in the context of that year's market) that it was basically a "screw you." I think the O's should have been much more aggressive, but at the end of the day, I don't think it would have mattered.

[El Gordo]

Looking at my notes on this, the counter offer I remember was 7yrs $105M.

I also show the O's offering 5yrs $65M in Dec, eventually upping that to $67.5M. We did up it again to the 6yrs $78M you mentioned, and he then countered with the 7yrs $105M.

SG and I were advocating going to 6yrs $85-$90M for him.

When I asked Beattie about this in 2009, his feeling was the O's may have been used to pump up other offers.

I remember the O's final offer being more than the gauranteed 5/70 Vlad signed for. The Angels' option years made it more.

[mweb]

As far as I recall, the O's weren't even given the chance of negotiatiing with the agent that closed the deal with the Angels. Plus, as has been said, the O's were not given an opportunity to counter an offer by the Angels that wasn't really better than what the O's had offered. That's pretty telling imo.

Then consider what was reported about him wanting to play in a market with a decent Hispanic population and it's rather obvious to me that he didn't want to play in Baltimore. Now if the O's had by far the best offer, sure, he may have been convinced to play in BMore.

I can't fault the O's much for not continuing to bid against themselves for a player who didn't want to play for them and had what was considered a risky back situation.

BTW, according to FG, he wouldn't have been worth 6/90.

[Frobby]

Looking at my notes on this, the counter offer I remember was 7yrs $105M.

I also show the O's offering 5yrs $65M in Dec, eventually upping that to $67.5M. We did up it again to the 6yrs $78M you mentioned, and he then countered with the 7yrs $105M.

SG and I were advocating going to 6yrs $85-$90M for him.

When I asked Beattie about this in 2009, his feeling was the O's may have been used to pump up other offers.

OK, I am seeing some articles referrring to a 7/$105mm counteroffer. That, to me, was a reasonable counteroffer, not a "screw you," so I retract that part of what I said before. I'm pretty sure I was in agreement with those who were willing to go to 6/$85-90 for Vlad. For context, the previous winter the top deal had been Jim Thome, 6/$85 mm, and to me Vlad was worth at least that much, even though the market was much weaker in 2003-04 than it had been the previous winter. I still feel that Vlad would have turned it down, but I would have liked to have seen the Orioles make him do it.

[TonySoprano]

Right, the O's final offer was the 6yrs $78M vs the 5/$70M he signed for.

The O's offered more years, and more total dollars, with the Angels offering more $ per year, in a place he preferred to play.

Vlad countered the O's offer of 6yrs $78M with 7yrs $105M.

The Angels offered more per season. He wanted to go to the Dodgers and they couldn't get their act together because the team ownership was changing. We were the only game he had, and "bidding against ourselves" was the mantra. Beattie went away on a ski-trip, leaving Flanagan to close the deal with Palmeiro. Keep in mind, Palmeiro had the same agency as Guerrero. While we're talking Palmeiro, the head of the agency had Guerrero signed, sealed, and delivered to the Angels in three days. Flanagan heard the news from a reporter, without the courtesy of a phone call from Guerrero's agent.

[mweb]

OK, I am seeing some articles referrring to a 7/$105mm counteroffer. That, to me, was a reasonable counteroffer, not a "screw you," so I retract that part of what I said before. I'm pretty sure I was in agreement with those who were willing to go to 6/$85-90 for Vlad. For context, the previous winter the top deal had been Jim Thome, 6/$85 mm, and to me Vlad was worth at least that much, even though the market was much weaker in 2003-04 than it had been the previous winter. I still feel that Vlad would have turned it down, but I would have liked to have seen the Orioles make him do it.

I agree with the bold. Disagree with the last part because I don't think they should have upped their offer by a year and 15-20 million when there was no other team making an offer or showing much interest in him. In a situation like that, I think you could slighly up your offer to try to close the deal, but otherwise I think you should generally wait it out. Then you can either land the guy for that offer or if another team enters the picture like the Angels did, you can up your offer. However, the O's weren't given that opportunity because Vlad clearly did not want to play for them imo.

[Sports Guy]

As far as I recall, the O's weren't even given the chance of negotiatiing with the agent that closed the deal with the Angels. Plus, as has been said, the O's were not given an opportunity to counter an offer by the Angels that wasn't really better than what the O's had offered. That's pretty telling imo.

Then consider what was reported about him wanting to play in a market with a decent Hispanic population and it's rather obvious to me that he didn't want to play in Baltimore. Now if the O's had by far the best offer, sure, he may have been convinced to play in BMore.

I can't fault the O's much for not continuing to bid against themselves for a player who didn't want to play for them and had what was considered a risky back situation.

BTW, according to FG, he wouldn't have been worth 6/90.

Didn't they win the WS with Vlad and go to the playoffs several other years?

[Sports Guy]

I agree with Chris and yes, we have argued this enough.

Bottom line is Vlad needed us to really overpay for him to get here, which is exactly what we have to do anyway.

We paid Miggy 18 million more than anyone else offered him, so we understood the need to blow an offer out of the water.

We needed to do the same thing with Vlad.

We put 8 million more guaranteed dollars on the table. We probably needed to put a 6/96 deal on the table to get him here and our FO wasn't willing to do that.

Later on, they stated that Vlad was a luxury.

[Napoleon Solo]

Didn't they win the WS with Vlad and go to the playoffs several other years?

Vlad has never won a ring. Angels won it all in 2002 while he was still an Expo.

[mweb]

Vlad has never won a ring. Angels won it all in 2002 while he was still an Expo.

Hilarious.

BTW, it would be incorrect for anyone to take my comment as saying the Vlad contract was bad for the Angels or would have been for the O's. He was actually worth more than what the Angels gave him for one, and they were clearly in a situation where paying more for wins makes sense. With the O's, there would have still been 0 playoff appearances in all likelyhood, and he would have come up a little short of being worth the 6/90 (probably would have taken more) the O's would have paid him, but it certainly wouldn't have been bad. Just not a great deal, which seems like the perception on here.

[Sports Guy]

Vlad has never won a ring. Angels won it all in 2002 while he was still an Expo.

Thanks..Couldn't remember if he was on that team or not..and was too lazy to look it up.

However, they did go to the playoffs several years with Vlad..the contract was obviously worth it to them.

[Sports Guy]

Hilarious.

BTW, it would be incorrect for anyone to take my comment as saying the Vlad contract was bad for the Angels or would have been for the O's. He was actually worth more than what the Angels gave him for one, and they were clearly in a situation where paying more for wins makes sense. With the O's, there would have still been 0 playoff appearances in all likelyhood, and he would have come up a little short of being worth the 6/90 (probably would have taken more) the O's would have paid him, but it certainly wouldn't have been bad. Just not a great deal, which seems like the perception on here.

1) You have no idea how the dynamics of the team and the culture around the team would have changed with Vlad here.

2) Maybe he still ends up being worth the contract because he would have been in a better hitters park?

[El Gordo]

1) You have no idea how the dynamics of the team and the culture around the team would have changed with Vlad here.

2) Maybe he still ends up being worth the contract because he would have been in a better hitters park?

If you mean the O's would have been eating more beans and rice, I agree. Vlad's best year was 2002 at a 7.2 WAR. Give him the benifit of the doubt and considerung the "culture of the team" etc. give him a genereous 10 W's. What would that have done to the O's records during 2003 -10?

[Sports Guy]

If you mean the O's would have been eating more beans and rice, I agree. Vlad's best year was 2002 at a 7.2 WAR. Give him the benifit of the doubt and considerung the "culture of the team" etc. give him a genereous 10 W's. What would that have done to the O's records during 2003 -10?

Its a chain reaction..We win more games with Vlad....We become a more desirable place for FAs. We generate more revenue, etc....

The chain reaction goes on and on.

Maybe he just comes here, improves us by 5-7 games and that's all that happens.

Maybe we bring in more talent.

Maybe we end up trading Vlad and getting a huge package of players.

To just look at his contract, say he fell short of his "worth" and leaving it at that is both illogical and poor.

So many things could have happened, both good and bad.