Do you agree with this Jayson Stark about Pettitte and the HOF?

[Sports Guy]

http://espn.go.com/mlb/blog/_/name/stark_jayson/id/6087648/andy-pettitte-not-quite-hall-famer

I think its wrong to call him a #3 starter.

[JamesI]

Its pretty accurate. PEttitte (ignoring his PED use) is close to, but not quite, a HOFer.

[Frobby]

The factual arguments are all correct, but "no. 3 starter" is not fair. A career ERA+ of 117 makes him easily a no. 2.

[DrungoHazewood]

Pettitte is one of those guys in the gray area. There are about 20 current Hall of Fame pitchers who had lower career values than Pettitte. About 45 with more. There are roughly 20 pitchers with higher career value who have been rejected by the Hall, or at least the BBWAA.

He's basically the same pitcher as Kevin Appier, except for their teammates. Appier stayed on the HOF ballot for about 45 seconds.

He did pitch 263 postseason innings, which should count for something. But that's obviously due in no small part to his teammates.

[tennOsfan]

Pettitte was always a good, yet not great, pitcher. I think he falls just short of HofF standards. I don't believe he ever came close to being one of the top five pitchers in the game at any given time, and I don't think the aggregate of his work gets him in like a Blyleven.

[4TheO's]

as Harold Reynolds stated today...you have to warrant a players HOF merits in his generation...during Pettittes generation and time in MLB he was agruably in the top 5 and imho was in the top 10...and was a top lefty.......HOF worthy imho....

also I have to LMAO at the person who stated he was nothing more then a Kevin Appier......wow don't show your Yankee hatred with that :cussing:

[DrungoHazewood]

also I have to LMAO at the person who stated he was nothing more then a Kevin Appier......wow don't show your Yankee hatred with that :cussing:

Oh yea?

Pettitte: 3055 innings, 117 ERA+, 489 starts. 0.8 HR/9, 2.8 BB/9, 6.6 K/9. 50 WAR. 10 200+ inning seasons.

Appier: 2595 innings, 121 ERA+, 414 starts. 0.8 HR/9, 3.2 BB/9, 6.9 K/9. 50 WAR. 8 200+ inning seasons.

That's a laughable comparison? Sure, Pettitte had about two seasons more playing time, and a tiny bit more control. But Appier was better on a per-inning basis and struck out more batters.

The difference in their records (aside from playing time) seems mostly to be that Appier got 4.7 runs/start, while Pettitte got 5.5.

If you graded them on a 1-100 scale and gave Pettitte a 70 for his regular season performance you'd have to give Appier about a 65 or 68.

[Austin]

also I have to LMAO at the person who stated he was nothing more then a Kevin Appier......wow don't show your Yankee hatred with that :cussing:

Oh yea?

Pettitte: 3055 innings' date=' 117 ERA+, 489 starts. 0.8 HR/9, 2.8 BB/9, 6.6 K/9. 50 WAR. 10 200+ inning seasons.

Appier: 2595 innings, 121 ERA+, 414 starts. 0.8 HR/9, 3.2 BB/9, 6.9 K/9. 50 WAR. 8 200+ inning seasons.[/quote']

Ouch. Don't challenge Drungo unless you're prepared for a statistical beat-down.

[DrungoHazewood]

Ouch. Don't challenge Drungo unless you're prepared for a statistical beat-down.

More like don't post stuff that can be debunked in 23 seconds on bb-ref.

[Sports Guy]

Oh yea?

Pettitte: 3055 innings, 117 ERA+, 489 starts. 0.8 HR/9, 2.8 BB/9, 6.6 K/9. 50 WAR. 10 200+ inning seasons.

Appier: 2595 innings, 121 ERA+, 414 starts. 0.8 HR/9, 3.2 BB/9, 6.9 K/9. 50 WAR. 8 200+ inning seasons.

That's a laughable comparison? Sure, Pettitte had about two seasons more playing time, and a tiny bit more control. But Appier was better on a per-inning basis and struck out more batters.

The difference in their records (aside from playing time) seems mostly to be that Appier got 4.7 runs/start, while Pettitte got 5.5.

If you graded them on a 1-100 scale and gave Pettitte a 70 for his regular season performance you'd have to give Appier about a 65 or 68.

More like don't post stuff that can be debunked in 23 seconds on bb-ref.

Well, the durability stuff and the extra 500 innings have to come into play here...Not to mention what Pettitte was able to do in big games, in the postseason.

I can see why you are saying this about Appier...he was a pretty good pitcher, when he was healthy but you have to give Pettitte a solid edge on him because of the durability, extra innings and postseason accomplishments.

I personally would have no trouble putting Pettitte in the HOF..but if he doesn't go in, its not some travesty either.

[Frobby]

Well, the durability stuff and the extra 500 innings have to come into play here...Not to mention what Pettitte was able to do in big games, in the postseason.

I can see why you are saying this about Appier...he was a pretty good pitcher, when he was healthy but you have to give Pettitte a solid edge on him because of the durability, extra innings and postseason accomplishments.

I personally would have no trouble putting Pettitte in the HOF..but if he doesn't go in, its not some travesty either.

The issue is, how much of an advantage should you give a guy who, as you say, "was able to" perform well in the postseason, compared to a pitcher who, through no fault of his own, never (or rarely) got to the postseason.

Pettitte's post-season ERA is basically the same as his regular season ERA. He got tremendous run support in the post-season in his career, hence his excellent 19-10 post-season record.

[scOtt]

#3 is a little harsh, and I don't think Stark really meant it to be.... but #3 is about how I think of Pettitte too. He was a really good, really solid part of many rotations. But he was never a star, never a #1. There are worse things you could be than the best #3 ever.

[backwardsk]

I think it'll take awhile for him to get in if he does given his PED/steroid connection.

[Can_of_corn]

I read a pro Pettitte argument that basically said that that entrance requirements have become too high for starters. They supported this by showing how few starting pitchers have been getting into the hall.

The problem with that, and with Pettitte's chances of an early induction, is the crop of pitchers that will be showing up on the ballot between now and his appearance. Among starters we will have: Clemens, Maddux, Glavine, Johnson, Pedro, Shilling, Smoltz, Mussina and maybe Moyer. Does Pettitte have a stronger case then any of the above?

[BaltimoreTerp]

I read a pro Pettitte argument that basically said that that entrance requirements have become too high for starters. They supported this by showing how few starting pitchers have been getting into the hall.

The problem with that, and with Pettitte's chances of an early induction, is the crop of pitchers that will be showing up on the ballot between now and his appearance. Among starters we will have: Clemens, Maddux, Glavine, Johnson, Pedro, Shilling, Smoltz, Mussina and maybe Moyer. Does Pettitte have a stronger case then any of the above?

That's similar to the "Jack Morris was the winningest pitcher of the 1980s" argument. He pitched in the period after the Palmer-Seaver-Jenkins-Perry-etc. group, and before the Clemens-Maddox-Glavine-Johnson-etc. group. So his numbers look better due to a lack of contemporaries.

We're in that same period in the Hall voting.