Fangraphs doesn't get the Vlad move

[Dagger420]

Pie will be 26 years old this season. He is what he is. He's no longer the uber 22 year old prospect that broke in with the Cubs. He lacks the baseball instincts and the discipline to become that star player.

That's your opinion. I don't think you're crazy for thinking this, but I don't agree.

Pie is 26, I'm 26 and in no way to I feel like I'm fully developed physically, and in no way do I feel like "I am what I am." I'm not even to my prime age range for power in baseball terms.

When Pie first got here, he didn't play very well. Last year I saw flashes of him playing exceptionally well, combined with flashes of that guy when he first got here. Nobody said he was an 'uber prospect' at this point, and he wouldn't have been gotten on the cheap if he even was when we got him.

He's also been said to have some of the best batting practice power on the team, so there is talent there. Obviously his deal is consistency and instincts. The only way to improve those things is experience and repetition. If Pie has worked hard this offseason and works hard in spring and stays healthy, I think he could be a very solid 4th of, and possibly a third outfielder in a year or so. Having another Dominican, and a legend at that like Vlad to just be a resource if he needs also has to help the kid. His defense has improved a ton since he's gotten here and he covers an amazing range of ground in the outfield, which really takes away extra base hits.

I think the guy has two years to prove he can be a consistent mlb player and I think he can do it with Buck around to keep his head right.

I think its better to have Luke in front of him because You know Luke or Vlad will be on the DL at some point this season and Pie will play the field and stay fresh and realize he needs to work harder to make it. I think he's a competitive guy that will rise to the occasion. But that's just me.

Reimold in my eyes would have to rake pretty considerably in spring to earn a spot on the ML club. He really has to show me that he is healthy and ready to resume where he was. At least Pie has exceptional range and is a late inning runner,

[davearm]

Pie will be 26 years old this season. He is what he is. He's no longer the uber 22 year old prospect that broke in with the Cubs. He lacks the baseball instincts and the discipline to become that star player.

His upside is Jeffrey Hammonds - a solid 4th OFer. So now you see if he can take that role off the bench and excel at it. And if there is an injury, perhaps he gets one more crack at starting full time.

Now Reimold could be Werth, but it would be nice to see him crush the heck out of AAA pitching one more time just to make sure.

And then if he does perhaps you trade Vlad or trade Reimold himself for a SP if the Orioles are doing well with Vlad crushing the ball in Baltimore.

The Orioles now have options they wouldn't have had before.

And if Pie and Reimold both fall flat, you now know that you can't depend on them, and don't hurt the ML team in the process in that discovery.

You may be right, but the whole point is, with Vlad blocking them both then you expressly don't get to learn what you have with the other two.

Not with them playing AAA and/or getting 250 ABs.

[JTrea81]

That's your opinion. I don't think you're crazy for thinking this, but I don't agree.

Pie is 26, I'm 26 and in no way to I feel like I'm fully developed physically, and in no way do I feel like "I am what I am." I'm not even to my prime age range for power in baseball terms.

When Pie first got here, he didn't play very well. Last year I saw flashes of him playing exceptionally well, combined with flashes of that guy when he first got here. Nobody said he was an 'uber prospect' at this point, and he wouldn't have been gotten on the cheap if he even was when we got him.

He's also been said to have some of the best batting practice power on the team, so there is talent there. Obviously his deal is consistency and instincts. The only way to improve those things is experience and repetition. If Pie has worked hard this offseason and works hard in spring and stays healthy, I think he could be a very solid 4th of, and possibly a third outfielder in a year or so. Having another Dominican, and a legend at that like Vlad to just be a resource if he needs also has to help the kid. His defense has improved a ton since he's gotten here and he covers an amazing range of ground in the outfield, which really takes away extra base hits.

I think the guy has two years to prove he can be a consistent mlb player and I think he can do it with Buck around to keep his head right.

Did you not see him flip out at the 1B umpire in the Dominican?

Pie just doesn't have the discipline to become that guy IMO. He's just too raw and unrefined and hasn't shown that he can change yet.

And he may have range, but what good is that range if he takes poor routes to the ball?

[JTrea81]

You may be right, but the whole point is, with Vlad blocking them both then you expressly don't get to learn what you have with the other two.

Not with them playing AAA and/or getting 250 ABs.

Again, didn't two years tell you what you had with Pie?

I can understand Reimold, but putting him in AAA is not a bad thing at all for reasons I've already stated.

[SilentJames]

Pie will be 26 years old this season. He is what he is. He's no longer the uber 22 year old prospect that broke in with the Cubs. He lacks the baseball instincts and the discipline to become that star player.

His upside is Jeffrey Hammonds - a solid 4th OFer. So now you see if he can take that role off the bench and excel at it. And if there is an injury, perhaps he gets one more crack at starting full time.

Now Reimold could be Werth, but it would be nice to see him crush the heck out of AAA pitching one more time just to make sure.

And then if he does perhaps you trade Vlad or trade Reimold himself for a SP if the Orioles are doing well with Vlad crushing the ball in Baltimore.

The Orioles now have options they wouldn't have had before.

And if Pie and Reimold both fall flat, you now know that you can't depend on them, and don't hurt the ML team in the process in that discovery.

Jeffery Hammonds? Did you pull that name from the same hole you get your numbers from?

[byrdz]

With the health concerns between all of these players being discussed I think this will all resolve itself before game one of the regular season.

[JTrea81]

Jeffery Hammonds? Did you pull that name from the same hole you get your numbers from?

Look at the numbers, and it's a complement.

At this point, Pie would be lucky to have Hammonds' career.

Right now his comp is Ruben Mateo.

[Sports Guy]

Again, didn't two years tell you what you had with Pie?I can understand Reimold, but putting him in AAA is not a bad thing at all for reasons I've already stated.

Yep...It told me we have a very talented player with a lot of upside but one that can't stay healthy enough to be consistent.

I would like to see if he can stay healthy to prove what he is, one way or another.

And lets not forget Reimold in all of this...If he is healthy and his head is on straight, he will be productive.

Again, its fine to want depth. But some of your reasoning here is just awful.

[Dagger420]

Did you not see him flip out at the 1B umpire in the Dominican?

Pie just doesn't have the discipline to become that guy IMO. He's just too raw and unrefined and hasn't shown that he can change yet.

And he may have range, but what good is that range if he takes poor routes to the ball?

Yea i saw him flip out because it was a horrible call from a horrible angle in a really important part of the game.

He's passionate, that's what it shows me. You've got to really be into playing the game if you're a MLB player and you're getting that worked up in the Dominican Leagues. It shows me he cares, He's a competitive son of a biscuit. Just like he's the first one out there when someone hits a walk off. The guy is passionate about baseball, what is wrong with that?

And to your line of reasoning that the guy goes off on someone and it means he has no discipline, Terrible. Just because the guy has a quick fuse, does not mean anything? He's obviously one of the most athletic specimens on the Orioles, combining speed and power and I doubt that is just natural.

A guy like Manny Ramirez shoved some old guy. David Justice beat up Halle Berry. I mean there is a million examples of great athletes doing stupid things. Many have to do with roid rage I'm sure, and maybe Pie has been enhancing, but I don't think you can make that connection.

Range = the area you can cover. Who cares what route he takes as long as he covers it.

[Dagger420]

With the health concerns between all of these players being discussed I think this will all resolve itself before game one of the regular season.

Exactly, I think the best scenario is to keep all of them fresh, and if they do get hurt, you have back-up plans.

[JTrea81]

Yep...It told me we have a very talented player with a lot of upside but one that can't stay healthy enough to be consistent.

I would like to see if he can stay healthy to prove what he is, one way or another.

He was healthy in 2010 from July to October.

If he can't stay consistent over three months, then why would you think he could do it over one season?

And if he can't stay healthy over two years, why do you think in his third year he'll break that streak?

Look at Rocco Baldelli for example and Jeffrey Hammonds as another. Some players simply can't cut it as regulars because they can't stay healthy and/or consistent. Pie is likely one of them. So you make him a 4th OFer for now and see if he can at least be of value to you there.

[jiminnj]

The nightmare I have about the Vlad signing is one that Drungo brought up in another thread awhile ago. What do the Os do if Vlad is just doing OK, something around the .780 OPS that I think his trends predict for him and Reimold and Pie are looking very good. Chances are Vlad is hurting the team then. At that OPS he would not be easy to trade. But everyone is also hoping that this is Vlad and he will snap out of it, next month he will put up a 0.900 OPS. Last year he had 2 bad months and then a good Sept. How many plate appearances do you give him? How long before you bench him and play the youngsters? How can you even think about doing that to this HOF player? In 2005 we kept Sosa all year on the roster, although he sat in Sept after getting about 450 PA. Last year even with his ridiculous numbers, we still kept Atkins until mid season and gave him 150 PA. If Reimold mashes at AAA, for the future of the Os, he should be brought up to replace Vlad almost regardless of what Vlad is doing with the exception of if we are seriously in the hunt for a playoff position.

[Dagger420]

The nightmare I have about the Vlad signing is one that Drungo brought up in another thread awhile ago. What do the Os do if Vlad is just doing OK, something around the .780 OPS that I think his trends predict for him and Reimold and Pie are looking very good. Chances are Vlad is hurting the team then. At that OPS he would not be easy to trade. But everyone is also hoping that this is and Vlad he will snap out of it, next month he will put up a 0.900 OPS. Last year he had 2 bad months and then a good Sept. How many plate appearances do you give him? How long before you bench him and play the youngsters? How can you even think about doing that to this HOF player? In 2005 we kept Sosa all year on the roster, although he sat in Sept after getting about 450 PA. Last year even with his ridiculous numbers, we still kept Atkins until mid season and gave him 150 PA. If Reimold mashes at AAA, for the future of the Os, he should be brought up to replace Vlad almost regardless of what Vlad is doing with the exception of if we are seriously in the hunt for a playoff position.

IMO Buck is all about winning. I think he will do what is best for the team and probably quit before being told what to do by MacPhail or Angelos. I trust him so far in that respect.

I think Buck is a factor many forget/underestimate, and probably a big reason in why we have the current roster we do.

All in all, this would be a good problem to have if Reimold and Pie were both looking very good.

[JTrea81]

The nightmare I have about the Vlad signing is one that Drungo brought up in another thread awhile ago. What do the Os do if Vlad is just doing OK, something around the .780 OPS that I think his trends predict for him and Reimold and Pie are looking very good. Chances are Vlad is hurting the team then. At that OPS he would not be easy to trade. But everyone is also hoping that this is and Vlad he will snap out of it, next month he will put up a 0.900 OPS. Last year he had 2 bad months and then a good Sept. How many plate appearances do you give him? How long before you bench him and play the youngsters? How can you even think about doing that to this HOF player? In 2005 we kept Sosa all year on the roster, although he sat in Sept after getting about 450 PA. Last year even with his ridiculous numbers, we still kept Atkins until mid season and gave him 150 PA. If Reimold mashes at AAA, for the future of the Os, he should be brought up to replace Vlad almost regardless of what Vlad is doing with the exception of if we are seriously in the hunt for a playoff position.

The difference with Sosa was that he didn't have a .780 OPS. He was in the .600s or worse.

And somehow I doubt that Buck Showalter is going to keep a blazing hot Reimold in AAA for long if Vlad is pulling a Sosa.

I doubt however Vlad has an OPS below .800 let alone as bad as Sosa. It's possible, but unlikely IMO.

I think he'll put up at least what he did in Texas if not better.

[Crazysilver03]

He was healthy in 2010 from July to October.

If he can't stay consistent over three months, then why would you think he could do it over one season?

And if he can't stay healthy over two years, why do you think in his third year he'll break that streak?

Look at Rocco Baldelli for example and Jeffrey Hammonds as another. Some players simply can't cut it as regulars because they can't stay healthy and/or consistent. Pie is likely one of them. So you make him a 4th OFer for now and see if he can at least be of value to you there.

Yes, lets use an example of someone with muscular dystrophy issues to compare to Pie.