Toronto without the HGH

[LookitsPuck]

Not according to what I've read. My understanding is that HGH decreases fat and increases lean muscle tissue, but does not in and of itself increase strength. It aids in injury recovery. But none of these things are likely to contribute to TOR HR's. A recent Astralian study demonstrated that HGH could increse performance in spriters, due to the change in body composition, and more so if used in conjunction with testosterone. But they concluded "HGH, however, had no effect on jumping ability, aerobic capacity or strength, measured by the ability to dead-lift a weight, nor did HGH increase muscle mass" http://health.msn.com/health-topics/addiction/articlepage.aspx?cp-documentid=100257757

I'd be intrested in reading your information to the contrary.

Good grief.

Steroids and HGH by themselves will not do a bloody thing to aid the performance of a player outside of rehabilitation. And even then they have to put in the effort.

Only when coupled with an appropriate routine will the benefits really come out.

Your own article says that.

Truth be told, the results of steroids/HGH are individual dependent. Joe Schmoe baseball player can take them and not do anything required to maximize the results, and he won't see optimum results. Guys like Barry Bonds use them (and use them, he did!), and, well, you see the results. Bigger, faster, stronger.

Some quotes from your article:

In the study, Ho's team found that the improvement in sprinting speed for athletes on HGH was the equivalent of a 4 percent gain. In runner's terms, that means an athlete who typically runs the 100-meter dash in 10 seconds could shave off a bit less than half a second of time. Or, in swimmer's terms, it's the equivalent of shaving off 1.2 seconds from a 50-meter swim normally done in about 30 seconds.

"For athletes, it is sufficient to make a very significant difference in terms of winning or losing a competition," Rabin said. "It's the difference between being the winner and the last one in the finals."

...so which is it, El Gordo? Does HGH improve performance or doesn't it?

Yet the study has limitations, Frankel said. Researchers could not say with certainty whether the athletes improved sprint ability because of HGH or because they trained harder during the 8 weeks of the study. And many athletes take HGH believing it will boost endurance, strength, power and other physical abilities -- effects the study did not find.

Sounds like this study tried too hard to satisfy way too many conditions without noting the appropriate criteria for each test specimen.

The thing is this:

Anyone that is serious about their performance, whether it be a football player, baseball player, weightlifter, etc. They'll all be able to tell you their specific numbers. That is: how fast they can do this, how much they can lift in this motion, how much they can lift in that motion, etc. etc.

You give these people steroids/HGH, and those numbers will change. And you know why? Because they're putting in the work to maximize these things. It's exactly what the article says:

In the study, Ho's team found that the improvement in sprinting speed for athletes on HGH was the equivalent of a 4 percent gain. In runner's terms, that means an athlete who typically runs the 100-meter dash in 10 seconds could shave off a bit less than half a second of time. Or, in swimmer's terms, it's the equivalent of shaving off 1.2 seconds from a 50-meter swim normally done in about 30 seconds.

"For athletes, it is sufficient to make a very significant difference in terms of winning or losing a competition," Rabin said. "It's the difference between being the winner and the last one in the finals."

Sprint capacity returned to normal six weeks after participants stopped receiving injections, according to the study.

They're trying to gain that little edge. Anything to get them there.

Just ask Marion Jones about how much it helped her.

True athletes KNOW that the littlest things can give them the biggest edge.

[El Gordo]

Good grief.

Steroids and HGH by themselves will not do a bloody thing to aid the performance of a player outside of rehabilitation. And even then they have to put in the effort.

Only when coupled with an appropriate routine will the benefits really come out.

Your own article says that.

Truth be told, the results of steroids/HGH are individual dependent. Joe Schmoe baseball player can take them and not do anything required to maximize the results, and he won't see optimum results. Guys like Barry Bonds use them (and use them, he did!), and, well, you see the results. Bigger, faster, stronger.

Some quotes from your article:

...so which is it, El Gordo? Does HGH improve performance or doesn't it?

Sounds like this study tried too hard to satisfy way too many conditions without noting the appropriate criteria for each test specimen.

The thing is this:

Anyone that is serious about their performance, whether it be a football player, baseball player, weightlifter, etc. They'll all be able to tell you their specific numbers. That is: how fast they can do this, how much they can lift in this motion, how much they can lift in that motion, etc. etc.

You give these people steroids/HGH, and those numbers will change. And you know why? Because they're putting in the work to maximize these things. It's exactly what the article says:

They're trying to gain that little edge. Anything to get them there.

Just ask Marion Jones about how much it helped her.

True athletes KNOW that the littlest things can give them the biggest edge.

How much does improved sprinting speed enhance yo r ability to hit HR. And if your body fat decreases isn't it likely that you'll run faster?

[DrungoHazewood]

Nothing on this board is in my top 10,000.

Question: if you had a vote for the HOF, do you vote for Bonds, Clemens, Raffy?

Yes. Just as I would vote for Pud Galvin after he bragged about taking bull testicle extract in the 1880s. And I'd vote for Willie Mays and Hank Aaron after strong evidence came out that both used illegal amphetamines. I'd vote for Gaylord Perry after multiple times being caught throwing spitballs and the like. Albert Belle's corked bat wouldn't stop me from voting for him, it's his short career that might. I'd also vote for Babe Ruth despite his womanizing, his partying and vast, open consumption of illegal alcohol that almost certainly cost him large chunks of several seasons. I'd vote for Ty Cobb despite a little bit of over-the-top anger management issues. I'd vote for any number of 19th century stars who almost certainly took opiates and other crazy patent medicines that wouldn't be approved by the FDA of Zimbabwe today. I'd vote for any of Tom House's and Jim Bouton's buddies from the 60s whose playing records are of high enough quality, despite them taking stuff House says were too dangerous to have given a horse. I'd vote for Paul Molitor and Tim Raines despite their connections to the drug scandals of the 80s.

I'd rather have a HOF with some meaning to living people, rather than one that draws a line around 1950 and says we can't let anyone in who played after that date because we can't be sure they're clean as the wind-driven snow.

He broke a baseball Rule. Plain and simple. how do we explain Bonds? Most of the posters are saying he did nothing wrong.

If you think we all treat Bonds as someone who is 100% innocent, you're either being hyperbolic to try to make a point, or you're not paying attention.

There's a big difference between saying someone was "doing nothing wrong" and singling out that person for punishment that you wouldn't hand out to thousands of others who did similar things.

[TJ Wrangler]

No one is innocent. It is THE PLAYERS union that fought steriod testing for years. It is THE PLAYERS union that fights HGH testing. If they are a union they have one voice.

Where were you in 1998 when the Sosa/McGwire home run chase put baseball on the map when it was struggling to recover it's identity after the 1994 strike season? Were you screaming for testing then?

What's your deal with the union anyways? Would you rather have one of the greatest players of all time being paid next to nothing compared to what players make today? In 1931 at his highest salary, Babe Ruth made 80,000, which adjusting for inflation, is just over 1 million dollars today. Would you rather the money the players are making today go back into the owners pockets? I'm sure no owner would mind pocketing that extra 30 million/year off of A-Rod's deal. Because of the Unions, we the fans arguably are better off. Owners can't just pocket income to the extent that they would have been able to in the past. Your athletes are better taken care of, your facilities are better off, and you get a better product on the field. This isn't the 1860's anymore, and thankfully, workers have something called rights.

http://www.baseball-almanac.com/tsn/babe_ruth_salary.shtml

http://www.westegg.com/inflation/

Steroids/PEDs, and Unions may have very well saved the game you love that you're going to huge extremes to try to protect. But obviously you have an agenda against progress. I can safely assume you're don't own a baseball team (although I may need a full background check of you and everyone in your family going back 10 generations for proof), so you're either a troll or a completely delusional person. Or both, for that matter.

I've been waiting awhile to use this in appropriate context, so thank you for the opportunity.

[LookitsPuck]

How much does improved sprinting speed enhance yo r ability to hit HR. And if your body fat decreases isn't it likely that you'll run faster?

Marion Jones was using a combination of steroids/HGH to best optimize her results. She ran faster because she had more lean muscle mass/stronger muscles in her legs.

[El Gordo]

Marion Jones was using a combination of steroids/HGH to best optimize her results. She ran faster because she had more lean muscle mass/stronger muscles in her legs.

What was Marion Jones HR per AB's? :laughlol:

[O-The-Memories]

Marion Jones was using a combination of steroids/HGH to best optimize her results. She ran faster because she had more lean muscle mass/stronger muscles in her legs.

Yeah, her use was pretty obvious in my eye. She went from being lean and quite pretty (in my opinion at least) to jacked and with a ton of muscle. She won more events because of her use of banned substances.

[TJ Wrangler]

I want to take this a step farther.

We hear all this about the integrity of the game, but let me ask you an honest question.

If you weren't a baseball player who was playing the game the "right" way and getting passed over by players who were using PEDs, why in the world would you care whether or not players used PEDs?

Seriously, what reason is there to care one way or another? You're getting a better game when players were on PEDs, and it does not impact you one way or another unless you're on the field and getting passed over because you're not using PEDs.

Steroids, HGH, amphetamines, and the like have given players the ability to rebound quickly from fatigue and injuries and play at a higher level. They have also given the underdog in the minors the ability to carve out a career in the major leagues.

Nobody was complaining when Jay Gibbons was looked at as our future in RF. Sure his game was flawed, but I'll take his production over another Jay Payton. Gibbons didn't become a whipping boy until they started testing and suddenly he couldn't hit anymore. Guess steroids were only a bad thing when suddenly average players became replacement players.

It just perplexes me how people who are not even playing the game can suddenly impose a subjective morality on to the game when in all reality, it does not affect them one way or another. It irritates me to no end how some old overweight writers can keep some of the greatest players out of the game over an issue that they have no practical understanding about.

None of us know what goes in to being a major league baseball player, unless there is a major league baseball player posting here. You have no idea what they go through day in and day out to stay into shape, recover from fatigue and injuries, deal with the emotional and mental aspect of constantly being on the road, and all the other stresses and temptations that go with living a higher end lifestyle while keeping your body in pristine physical condition.

So who cares if the entire Jays team sat back and shot up HGH together? Obviously it didn't work, because as Drungo pointed out, they were an average offensive team that just happened to hit for power at the expense of BA and OBP. They became a team of Juan Uribes, not Alex Rodriguezes.

Add this up to an unsubstantiated claim that because offensive production went up, therefore PEDs must be the reason is illogical and foolish. You will never know whether or not the Jays shot up on HGH unless they come out and say so, nor will you know about what 99% of all players to have ever played the game did, and unless this directly impacts you, why should you care?

I know I'll probably take some heat for this, but it's a game fellas, morality has very little place here.

[Arthur_Bryant]

If you weren't a baseball player who was playing the game the "right" way and getting passed over by players who were using PEDs, why in the world would you care whether or not players used PEDs?

Seriously, what reason is there to care one way or another? You're getting a better game when players were on PEDs, and it does not impact you one way or another unless you're on the field and getting passed over because you're not using PEDs.

The number of people who are directly affected is much greater than you may believe. It's not just elite athletes; anyone who plays a major sport at the HS level and beyond, in anything but a casual manner, has to confront this. And when PED use becomes casually accepted, then it becomes virtually mandatory. Kids feel that they must use if they want to compete.

My two kids are both excellent athletes, one now in college, the other in HS. Both play sports where PEDs give a definite edge. The older one has already had to deal with the choice between being clean or being truly competitive at a high level. The other will be running into it in the next couple of years, I'm sure.

It's tough to see your kids being forced to decide whether to risk their health for the sport they love... even before they're old enough to buy a beer legally.

[24fps]

The number of people who are directly affected is much greater than you may believe. It's not just elite athletes; anyone who plays a major sport at the HS level and beyond, in anything but a casual manner, has to confront this. And when PED use becomes casually accepted, then it becomes virtually mandatory. Kids feel that they must use if they want to compete.

My two kids are both excellent athletes, one now in college, the other in HS. Both play sports where PEDs give a definite edge. The older one has already had to deal with the choice between being clean or being truly competitive at a high level. The other will be running into it in the next couple of years, I'm sure.

It's tough to see your kids being forced to decide whether to risk their health for the sport they love... even before they're old enough to buy a beer legally.

The restraint you show in this response is an inspiration to all of us who occasionally struggle to be a grownup around here.

[LookitsPuck]

What was Marion Jones HR per AB's? :laughlol:

:smile11:

But, really. She's a perfect example of someone who was extremely talented to begin with, who took her already strict routine and enhanced herself all over via the use of steroids/HGH. They are supplements. And in doing so she became bigger, faster, stronger. Same with baseball players. They use it for recovery, yes. But why for recovery? So they can build more muscle, faster. And if using proper training techniques, they're getting stronger. And if they're stronger? Their bat speed increases. Those lazy hits are now line drives. Those lines drives are now towering shots. Those doubles/warning shots are now home runs.

[Tony-OH]

It's the first day of spring and we've had these conversations about 9,000 times this off season.

I think everyone has had their say and then some.

Go O's in 2011!