Toronto without the HGH

[LookitsPuck]

No you're not. You're lumping them all together. They don't all work the same way or do the same things. There are many misconceptions about them. For instance, did you know that when Congress made steroids essentially illegal in 1991, they did so over the objections of the AMA the DEA and the CDC, organizations that might know something about drugs and their effects. The laws and rules against some PED's are based mostly on ignorance and public hysteria.

...and the same can be said about marijuana, but that's still illegal, also.

I'm going to ask this question:

Do steroids and HGH have *any* effect on performance in baseball?

[El Gordo]

...and the same can be said about marijuana, but that's still illegal, also.

I'm going to ask this question:

Do steroids and HGH have *any* effect on performance in baseball?

Weve been through this before. Leave it alone.

[LookitsPuck]

Weve been through this before. Leave it alone.

Then please don't spread your ignorance in this thread. You can post articles until you're blue in the face: and from livestrong.com, nonetheless.

Using the old "There is no evidence that PEDs have any effect on the performance of athletes" is just an idiotic [yes, I mean that] assertion to make.

Do you think *any* government agency is going to pump steroids/HGH into athletes and see the before and after effects for every sport imaginable? Of course not.

[El Gordo]

Then please don't spread your ignorance in this thread. You can post articles until you're blue in the face: and from livestrong.com, nonetheless.

Using the old "There is no evidence that PEDs have any effect on the performance of athletes" is just an idiotic [yes, I mean that] assertion to make.

Do you think *any* government agency is going to pump steroids/HGH into athletes and see the before and after effects for every sport imaginable? Of course not.

This thread isn't about all PED's It's about HGH and whetehr they had any effect on TOR HR output. I have yert to see that there is any definitive evidence that HGH has an effect on athletic performance. Can you show me a study were this is true. Other wise your assertions are anecdotal and as unfounded as any one elses' and eqaully idiotic.

[LookitsPuck]

This thread isn't about all PED's It's about HGH and whetehr they had any effect on TOR HR output. I have yert to see that there is any definitive evidence that HGH has an effect on athletic performance. Can you show me a study were this is true. Other wise your assertions are anecdotal and as unfounded as any one elses' and eqaully idiotic.

HGH is a performance enhancing drug. Good grief. Are you really going down this route and you don't even know that?

[El Gordo]

HGH is a performance enhancing drug. Good grief. Are you really going down this route and you don't even know that?

I'm not getting into this stupid pissing contest. If you want me to respond then stop ducking the issue, and give me an example of a study that demontrates that HGH enhances athletic performance.

[LookitsPuck]

I'm not getting into this stupid pissing contest. If you want me to respond then stop ducking the issue, and give me an example of a study that demontrates that HGH enhances athletic performance.

Are you really this dense?

You're not going to find a government sanctioned study. Instead you'll find piss-poor links like the livestrong.com link speaking in generalities for the appeasement of the masses. Reason being? For exactly I spoke earlier.

If you know anything about the human body, you'll know what steroids/HGH can do for it. And you'll know that recovery is not the only thing, in fact that is merely a part of it.

It's a simple question, man. Do steroids/HGH increase strength? Do steroids help athletes outside of recovery?

This isn't a pissing contest. This is a question that you love to duck.

[El Gordo]

Are you really this dense?

You're not going to find a government sanctioned study. Instead you'll find piss-poor links like the livestrong.com link speaking in generalities for the appeasement of the masses. Reason being? For exactly I spoke earlier.

If you know anything about the human body, you'll know what steroids/HGH can do for it. And you'll know that recovery is not the only thing, in fact that is merely a part of it.

It's a simple question, man. Do steroids/HGH increase strength? Do steroids help athletes outside of recovery?

This isn't a pissing contest. This is a question that you love to duck.

If I were to say no to HGH, you wouldn't accept that answer without evidence to support it. Nor should you. Why should I accept your anecdotal notions that it does, when you refuse to provide any evidence.

[LookitsPuck]

If I were to say no to HGH, you wouldn't accept that answer without evidence to support it. Nor should you. Why should I accept your anecdotal notions that it does, when you refuse to provide any evidence.

Okay, you sidestepped one element. I specifically asked steroids/HGH. So, to you steroids now help, but HGH doesn't? Is that what you're saying?

Truth be told, HGH is banned by major league baseball. They consider it a performance enhancing drug. Now, whether or not you think HGH helps with performance is another issue. But at least you're [somewhat] admitting that steroids do.

[Crazysilver03]

If I were to say no to HGH, you wouldn't accept that answer without evidence to support it. Nor should you. Why should I accept your anecdotal notions that it does, when you refuse to provide any evidence.

How much evidence do you need about HGH?

It helps recovery and to build new muscle/connective tissue. You only need a cursory understanding of hormones to know that.

[crawjo]

If the Blue Jays are using HGH, they sure as hell aren't the only ones doing it, because the tests still can't detect it. I would guess that HGH use is probably fairly common in the sport right now. Whether the Blue Jays home run outburst from last season is a product of HGH is anyone's guess. It's unknowable.

To me the only guy whose home run production really jumped out at me was Bautista, and he started improving in that direction in September 2009.

[LookitsPuck]

How much evidence do you need about HGH?

It helps recovery and to build new muscle/connective tissue. You only need a cursory understanding of hormones to know that.

The thing is, it builds muscle/connective tissue. He'll counter that it doesn't increase strength. But the thing is athletes are using steroids/HGH as supplements to their training. They're not staying at home thinking that steroids/HGH are miracle drugs that can eliminate the training aspect of their career.

[LookitsPuck]

To me the only guy whose home run production really jumped out at me was Bautista, and he started improving in that direction in September 2009.

Improving?

According to baseball-reference.com, his average over seasons 2004-2009 was something like 17 home runs every 495 at bats. That's roughly 29 at bats per home run.

If we look at his 4 prior years to 2010:

2006: 16 home runs in 400 at bats = ~25 per home run

2007: 15 home runs in 532 at bats = ~35 per home run

2008: 15 home runs in 370 at bats = ~25 per home run

2009: 13 home runs in 336 at bats = ~26 per home run

But 2010? 54 home runs in 569 at bats. Or roughly 11 at bats per home run. That's an amazing rate compared to his average of 25 per.

[Crazysilver03]

Improving?

According to baseball-reference.com, his average over seasons 2004-2009 was something like 17 home runs every 495 at bats. That's roughly 29 at bats per home run.

If we look at his 4 prior years to 2010:

2006: 16 home runs in 400 at bats = ~25 per home run

2007: 15 home runs in 532 at bats = ~35 per home run

2008: 15 home runs in 370 at bats = ~25 per home run

2009: 13 home runs in 336 at bats = ~26 per home run

But 2010? 54 home runs in 569 at bats. Or roughly 11 at bats per home run. That's an amazing rate compared to his average of 25 per.

Crawjo said he improved in September of 2009.

In 2009, he only had 3 homeruns through September (279 PA). He had 10 homeruns in Sept/Oct in 109 PA. So that 11 AB/HR rate started in September the year before.

[El Gordo]

Improving?

According to baseball-reference.com, his average over seasons 2004-2009 was something like 17 home runs every 495 at bats. That's roughly 29 at bats per home run.

If we look at his 4 prior years to 2010:

2006: 16 home runs in 400 at bats = ~25 per home run

2007: 15 home runs in 532 at bats = ~35 per home run

2008: 15 home runs in 370 at bats = ~25 per home run

2009: 13 home runs in 336 at bats = ~26 per home run

But 2010? 54 home runs in 569 at bats. Or roughly 11 at bats per home run. That's an amazing rate compared to his average of 25 per.

From 1957-1960 Roger Maris averaged a HR per 22 AB. In 1959 a HR per 36 AB. In 1960, a HR per 13 AB, 1961 a HR per 9 AB. Steroids? HGH? amphetamines? tobacco? alcohol? Mickey Mantle?