Pie > Jones ?

[Tony-OH]

But I think you are dead wrong if you think he can't be a 720ish OPS, above average defensive CFer.

That's all he has to be to be a league average starter.

You keep saying this but you are just wrong. Of the guys who played center field primarily last year and qualified for a batting title (everyday players), only five had an OPS under .735.

                                                                                                                                  Rk               Player HR Year Age  Tm Lg   G  PA  AB   R   H 2B 3B RBI BB IBB  SO HBP SH SF GDP SB CS   BA  OBP  SLG  OPS    Pos1          Colby Rasmus 23 2010  23 STL NL 144 534 464  85 128 28  3  66 63   9 148   1  2  4   5 12  8 .276 .361 .498 .859     *82          Vernon Wells 31 2010  31 TOR AL 157 646 590  79 161 44  3  88 50   5  84   3  0  3  18  6  4 .273 .331 .515 .847   *8/D3         Andres Torres 16 2010  32 SFG NL 139 570 507  84 136 43  8  63 56   2 128   2  5  0  10 26  7 .268 .343 .479 .823   *8974          Torii Hunter 23 2010  34 LAA AL 152 646 573  76 161 36  0  90 61   6 106   7  0  5  22  9 12 .281 .354 .464 .819  *89/D5      Andrew McCutchen 16 2010  23 PIT NL 154 653 570  94 163 35  5  56 70   1  89   5  1  7   6 33 10 .286 .365 .449 .814     *86           Chris Young 27 2010  26 ARI NL 156 664 584  94 150 33  0  91 74   0 145   2  1  3  10 28  7 .257 .341 .452 .793     *87     Curtis Granderson 24 2010  29 NYY AL 136 528 466  76 115 17  7  67 53   3 116   2  4  3   3 12  2 .247 .324 .468 .792     *88           Alexis Rios 21 2010  29 CHW AL 147 617 567  89 161 29  3  88 38   4  93   7  0  5  21 34 14 .284 .334 .457 .791  *8/D79           Marlon Byrd 12 2010  32 CHC NL 152 630 580  84 170 39  2  66 31   1  98  17  0  2  12  5  1 .293 .346 .429 .775   *8/D10          Drew Stubbs 22 2010  25 CIN NL 150 583 514  91 131 19  6  77 55   2 168   5  3  6   6 30  6 .255 .329 .444 .773     *811           Adam Jones 19 2010  24 BAL AL 149 621 581  76 165 25  5  69 23   1 119  13  2  2  17  7  7 .284 .325 .442 .767     *812          Angel Pagan 11 2010  28 NYM NL 151 633 579  80 168 31  7  69 44   5  97   1  6  3   9 37  9 .290 .340 .425 .765   *89713            Matt Kemp 28 2010  25 LAD NL 162 668 602  82 150 25  6  89 53   4 170   4  0  9  14 19 15 .249 .310 .450 .760     *814        Dexter Fowler  6 2010  24 COL NL 132 505 439  73 114 20 14  36 57   0 104   2  7  0   5 13  8 .260 .347 .410 .757     *815      Shane Victorino 18 2010  29 PHI NL 147 648 587  84 152 26 10  69 53   5  79   7  0  1   6 34  6 .259 .327 .429 .756     *816           B.J. Upton 18 2010  25 TBR AL 154 610 536  89 127 38  4  62 67   1 164   2  1  4  13 42  9 .237 .322 .424 .745     *817       Austin Jackson  4 2010  23 DET AL 151 675 618 103 181 34 10  41 47   4 170   4  3  3   5 27  6 .293 .345 .400 .745     *818            Cody Ross 14 2010  29 TOT NL 153 569 525  71 141 28  3  65 37   4 121   5  0  2   9  9  2 .269 .322 .413 .735   *89719          Rajai Davis  5 2010  29 OAK AL 143 561 525  66 149 28  3  52 26   0  78   4  1  5  10 50 11 .284 .320 .377 .697 *879/D20        Michael Bourn  2 2010  27 HOU NL 141 605 535  84 142 25  6  38 59   5 109   3  6  2   6 52 12 .265 .341 .346 .686     *821          Denard Span  3 2010  26 MIN AL 153 705 629  85 166 24 10  58 60   0  74   4 10  2  12 26  4 .264 .331 .348 .679     *822   Franklin Gutierrez 12 2010  27 SEA AL 152 629 568  61 139 25  3  64 50   5 137   1  2  8  10 25  3 .245 .303 .363 .666   *8/D23         Nyjer Morgan  0 2010  29 WSN NL 136 577 509  60 129 17  7  24 40   1  88  10 15  3   2 34 17 .253 .319 .314 .633     *8

Where did you get such a low number OPS for league average? BTW, I do think Pie could be a .720 OPS guy and play league average defense. But that would make him a bottom third starting CFer and we need to do better in the AL East.

[Tony-OH]

Because team's rosters have changed from 2010 to 2011? I can name 4-5 teams from 2010 that would have loved to have Pie starting for them if you'd like.

If you can name 4 or 5 teams that could use Pie, that still makes him a bottom-third starting center fielder. I never said Pie couldn't start for anyone, I just said he would not be a good everyday starter and I stand by that.

Be good enough to start in just five MLB teams is a pretty low bar to hurdle. If we are to compete in the AL East we really can't be using those hurdles.

[JTrea81]

That tells me he's a bottom-third option in centerfield.

And if we want to get out of that bottom-third of teams, we'd better not put bottom-third talent on the field.

Pie is a 4th OFer and that's all he's likely going to be. It's time to stop thinking of his potential and start thinking about if he can be a useful part of a competitive team as he is now - a bench player.

If he can do that, that's one piece that you don't need in the offseason for 2012.

[Sports Guy]

You keep saying this but you are just wrong. Of the guys who played center field primarily last year and qualified for a batting title (everyday players), only five had an OPS under .735.

                                                                                                                                  Rk               Player HR Year Age  Tm Lg   G  PA  AB   R   H 2B 3B RBI BB IBB  SO HBP SH SF GDP SB CS   BA  OBP  SLG  OPS    Pos1          Colby Rasmus 23 2010  23 STL NL 144 534 464  85 128 28  3  66 63   9 148   1  2  4   5 12  8 .276 .361 .498 .859     *82          Vernon Wells 31 2010  31 TOR AL 157 646 590  79 161 44  3  88 50   5  84   3  0  3  18  6  4 .273 .331 .515 .847   *8/D3         Andres Torres 16 2010  32 SFG NL 139 570 507  84 136 43  8  63 56   2 128   2  5  0  10 26  7 .268 .343 .479 .823   *8974          Torii Hunter 23 2010  34 LAA AL 152 646 573  76 161 36  0  90 61   6 106   7  0  5  22  9 12 .281 .354 .464 .819  *89/D5      Andrew McCutchen 16 2010  23 PIT NL 154 653 570  94 163 35  5  56 70   1  89   5  1  7   6 33 10 .286 .365 .449 .814     *86           Chris Young 27 2010  26 ARI NL 156 664 584  94 150 33  0  91 74   0 145   2  1  3  10 28  7 .257 .341 .452 .793     *87     Curtis Granderson 24 2010  29 NYY AL 136 528 466  76 115 17  7  67 53   3 116   2  4  3   3 12  2 .247 .324 .468 .792     *88           Alexis Rios 21 2010  29 CHW AL 147 617 567  89 161 29  3  88 38   4  93   7  0  5  21 34 14 .284 .334 .457 .791  *8/D79           Marlon Byrd 12 2010  32 CHC NL 152 630 580  84 170 39  2  66 31   1  98  17  0  2  12  5  1 .293 .346 .429 .775   *8/D10          Drew Stubbs 22 2010  25 CIN NL 150 583 514  91 131 19  6  77 55   2 168   5  3  6   6 30  6 .255 .329 .444 .773     *811           Adam Jones 19 2010  24 BAL AL 149 621 581  76 165 25  5  69 23   1 119  13  2  2  17  7  7 .284 .325 .442 .767     *812          Angel Pagan 11 2010  28 NYM NL 151 633 579  80 168 31  7  69 44   5  97   1  6  3   9 37  9 .290 .340 .425 .765   *89713            Matt Kemp 28 2010  25 LAD NL 162 668 602  82 150 25  6  89 53   4 170   4  0  9  14 19 15 .249 .310 .450 .760     *814        Dexter Fowler  6 2010  24 COL NL 132 505 439  73 114 20 14  36 57   0 104   2  7  0   5 13  8 .260 .347 .410 .757     *815      Shane Victorino 18 2010  29 PHI NL 147 648 587  84 152 26 10  69 53   5  79   7  0  1   6 34  6 .259 .327 .429 .756     *816           B.J. Upton 18 2010  25 TBR AL 154 610 536  89 127 38  4  62 67   1 164   2  1  4  13 42  9 .237 .322 .424 .745     *817       Austin Jackson  4 2010  23 DET AL 151 675 618 103 181 34 10  41 47   4 170   4  3  3   5 27  6 .293 .345 .400 .745     *818            Cody Ross 14 2010  29 TOT NL 153 569 525  71 141 28  3  65 37   4 121   5  0  2   9  9  2 .269 .322 .413 .735   *89719          Rajai Davis  5 2010  29 OAK AL 143 561 525  66 149 28  3  52 26   0  78   4  1  5  10 50 11 .284 .320 .377 .697 *879/D20        Michael Bourn  2 2010  27 HOU NL 141 605 535  84 142 25  6  38 59   5 109   3  6  2   6 52 12 .265 .341 .346 .686     *821          Denard Span  3 2010  26 MIN AL 153 705 629  85 166 24 10  58 60   0  74   4 10  2  12 26  4 .264 .331 .348 .679     *822   Franklin Gutierrez 12 2010  27 SEA AL 152 629 568  61 139 25  3  64 50   5 137   1  2  8  10 25  3 .245 .303 .363 .666   *8/D23         Nyjer Morgan  0 2010  29 WSN NL 136 577 509  60 129 17  7  24 40   1  88  10 15  3   2 34 17 .253 .319 .314 .633     *8

Where did you get such a low number OPS for league average? BTW, I do think Pie could be a .720 OPS guy and play league average defense. But that would make him a bottom third starting CFer and we need to do better in the AL East.

You aren't taking into account all the other CFers that get a lot of at bats but don't qualify for the batting title.

Well, the question is if you think his defense is league average or if it is better.

In CF, I feel Pie would be better than league average. Offensively, he may be a bottom third guy but his defense could propel him up.

If he is a 2-3 WAR CFer, that would be enough for us, no matter what division we are in.

[Scrat1]

I'm just guessing here, but I imagine any guy who was the center piece of the Zack Grienke trade is going to start of Pie.

Just nit-picking, but I'm pretty sure Escobar was the centerpiece of the trade, not Cain.

[Tony-OH]

Just nit-picking, but I'm pretty sure Escobar was the centerpiece of the trade, not Cain.

I had read that somewhere while researching each guy, but I honestly could not tell you which one was more highly sought. It sounded to me like both were keys pieces like Jones and Tillman in the Bedard trade.

[1983]

Well, if nothing else Pie has to be one of the most polarizing players in recent years;). Most if not all threads based around him have fallen into the same chaos this one has.

I am a Pie fan and have been since one of the original slugfest threads, but I can understand why some can't get behind him. I for one think Pie has way more talent and a brighter future than Nolan, but he by far has many more supporters. Please do not take that as a knock on Nolan, because I really hope he turns it around this year.

[Tony-OH]

You aren't taking into account all the other CFers that get a lot of at bats but don't qualify for the batting title.

Well, the question is if you think his defense is league average or if it is better.

In CF, I feel Pie would be better than league average. Offensively, he may be a bottom third guy but his defense could propel him up.

If he is a 2-3 WAR CFer, that would be enough for us, no matter what division we are in.

You really can't admit defeat can you?

19 center fielders had a 2 WAR or higher with 2.5 WAR being about league average last year. Pie was a 0.5 WAR player last year and even if you double his performance (616 PA) he would only be a 1 WAR player. Three CFers had 1 WAR last year and they were 20, 21, and 22 on the list. That means his most likely scenario if he stayed healthy, even taking defense into consideration, put him as an upper tier bottom third center fielder.

[Sports Guy]

You really can't admit defeat can you?

19 center fielders had a 2 WAR or higher with 2.5 WAR being about league average last year. Pie was a 0.5 WAR player last year and even if you double his performance (616 PA) he would only be a 1 WAR player. Three CFers had 1 WAR last year and they were 20, 21, and 22 on the list. That means his most likely scenario if he stayed healthy, even taking defense into consideration, put him as an upper tier bottom third center fielder.

As a LFer....that would go up as a CFer.

[Tony-OH]

As a LFer....that would go up as a CFer.

But his numbers in CF, albeit in a small sample size, were not very good last year. We only saw him in 9 games last year in center field. For all we know, his dWAR might actually be lower in CF.

[allstar1579]

But his numbers in CF, albeit in a small sample size, were not very good last year. We only saw him in 9 games last year in center field. For all we know, his dWAR might actually be lower in CF.

Doesn't this kinda come back to the Brady Anderson debate back in the 90's?

I remember there was a lot of debate over him playing LF or CF when OPACY opened because LF was a wider berth (including foul territory). Deveraux handled CF when they were both there even though I never thought he was some crazy spectacular fielder, but Brady was considered very good defensively in LF.

[allstar1579]

Just nit-picking, but I'm pretty sure Escobar was the centerpiece of the trade, not Cain.

They were 1A and 1B, at casual glance Escobar is the "name" in the deal because we discussed him ad nauseum around here, but Cain has been mentioned as the better overall prospect by a lot of scouts the past year.

[LookitsPuck]

If you can name 4 or 5 teams that could use Pie, that still makes him a bottom-third starting center fielder. I never said Pie couldn't start for anyone, I just said he would not be a good everyday starter and I stand by that.

Be good enough to start in just five MLB teams is a pretty low bar to hurdle. If we are to compete in the AL East we really can't be using those hurdles.

My original point was he could start LF/CF for quite a few teams. You contested it.

FWIW, I'd rather have Scott, Jones, and Markakis out in the OF as it gives us the best chance to win.

I don't ever want to see Reimold in LF ever again. He makes Pat Burrell look like Carl Crawford. He's beyond terrible.

[Sports Guy]

But his numbers in CF, albeit in a small sample size, were not very good last year. We only saw him in 9 games last year in center field. For all we know, his dWAR might actually be lower in CF.

Well, I think its pretty obvious that he is a better CFer than LFer right now.

However, his offensive numbers also look a lot better as a CFer vs a LFer...So, that would make his WAR better.

[Hank Scorpio]

My original point was he could start LF/CF for quite a few teams. You contested it.

FWIW, I'd rather have Scott, Jones, and Markakis out in the OF as it gives us the best chance to win.

I don't ever want to see Reimold in LF ever again. He makes Pat Burrell look like Carl Crawford. He's beyond terrible.

Seeing as how you're such a big fan of Pie's, one would imagine you'd be more understanding of how injuries can affect one's play. Reimold at 100% isn't "beyond terrible"... it's more likely "approaching terrible."

Pie is obviously the superior defensive player, that's not really debatable. But Reimold isn't Pat Burrell. He's at least reasonably athletic.