BA ranks Machado as no. 14 prospect; Britton 28

[RVAbird]

This guy had some pretty wide hips and was slow as molasses. What dummy made him plat SS for 15 years? It was obvious from the get go he wouldn't be very good at it.

Yes, because being big with wide hips and being a Ripkenesque defender have a 1:1 correlation.

[Stotle]

This guy had some pretty wide hips and was slow as molasses. What dummy made him plat SS for 15 years? It was obvious from the get go he wouldn't be very good at it.

1. You are obviously aware that Ripken is one of the best shortstops of all time for a number of reasons, and simply pointing at hip width is ridiculous.

2. I'm curious how many other players with that body type profiled at shortstop over the long haul. Let's see some more pics...

[El Gordo]

1. You are obviously aware that Ripken is one of the best shortstops of all time for a number of reasons, and simply pointing at hip width is ridiculous.

2. I'm curious how many other players with that body type profiled at shortstop over the long haul. Let's see some more pics...

Jeter and Arod come to mind. Nomar was a bit smaller. The point is fixing on one aspect of Machado's game/body type seem a bit narrow IMO. Maybe he only has slightly above average speed, maybe his hips are a bit too wide. Reminds me of the scouts in Money Ball that didn't like a guy because he had "titties".

[Stotle]

Jeter and Arod come to mind. Nomar was a bit smaller. The point is fixing on one aspect of Machado's game/body type seem a bit narrow IMO. Maybe he only has slightly above average speed, maybe his hips are a bit too wide. Reminds me of the scouts in Money Ball that didn't like a guy because he had "titties".

Haha. Okay. Three of the greatest shortstops off all time, and you are comfortable using them as a comp for someone you've probably never seen before. Heck, I'm not sure Callis has ever seen Machado play in person.

No one is fixating on "one aspect" of his game. I know I didn't when I wrote him up. RVA listed a number of attributes and explained why thought those attributes amounted to a future 3B. Your response was a picture of Cal Ripken, followed up by a reference to ARod and Jeter.

Isn't that sort of like saying a really complicated set-up and trigger at the plate isn't an issue for a young player because Gary Sheffield was really successful?

[El Gordo]

Haha. Okay. Three of the greatest shortstops off all time, and you are comfortable using them as a comp for someone you've probably never seen before. Heck, I'm not sure Callis has ever seen Machado play in person.

No one is fixating on "one aspect" of his game. I know I didn't when I wrote him up. RVA listed a number of attributes and explained why thought those attributes amounted to a future 3B. Your response was a picture of Cal Ripken, followed up by a reference to ARod and Jeter.

Isn't that sort of like saying a really complicated set-up and trigger at the plate isn't an issue for a young player because Gary Sheffield was really successful?

Sure they are. RVA is saying Machado's "lack of speed" will affect many aspects of his game. It could, but to begin with no one has demonstrated that he indeed lacks speed. What are his times to 1B? Then there are plenty of examples oF SS who managed with less than average speed. IMO baseball IQ, arm, and athletic ability, are more important than foot speed, for a SS.

[Stotle]

Sure they are. RVA is saying Machado's "lack of speed" will affect many aspects of his game. It could, but to begin with no one has demonstrated that he indeed lacks speed. What are his times to 1B? Then there are plenty of examples oF SS who managed with less than average speed. IMO baseball IQ, arm, and athletic ability, are more important than foot speed, for a SS.

Machado was below-average to first when I clocked him. The only 60 time I had was from PG Nationals, which was 6.81. That's right around average. The assumption would be that he will get slower as he fills in, so likely a tick below average runner that could be a full grade below by the time he's a fully mature MLB player in his late twenties.

I think your list of important attributes for a shortstop is a good one. I don't think it allows an evaluator to look past body type and current physical capabilities, though.

[Can_of_corn]

Machado was below-average to first when I clocked him. The only 60 time I had was from PG Nationals, which was 6.81. That's right around average. The assumption would be that he will get slower as he fills in, so likely a tick below average runner that could be a full grade below by the time he's a fully mature MLB player in his late twenties.

I think your list of important attributes for a shortstop is a good one. I don't think it allows an evaluator to look past body type and current physical capabilities, though.

Is speed a tool that can be realistically improved upon in this stage of his development? At least to the point it counteracts the expected decline.

[Stotle]

Is speed a tool that can be realistically improved upon in this stage of his development? At least to the point it counteracts the expected decline.

To a certain extent, you can clean up mechanics and work building a little, but I am not sure it would be enough to counteract the mass that it looks like will be added to Machado's frame (which is particularly broad in his trunk).

I don't think he is 100% certain to move off shortstop at all. But I do think there are indications that he may have some hurdles to clear if he is going to stick at the six-spot.

[Tony-OH]

Machado was below-average to first when I clocked him. The only 60 time I had was from PG Nationals, which was 6.81. That's right around average. The assumption would be that he will get slower as he fills in, so likely a tick below average runner that could be a full grade below by the time he's a fully mature MLB player in his late twenties.

I think your list of important attributes for a shortstop is a good one. I don't think it allows an evaluator to look past body type and current physical capabilities, though.

I had him below average to first at Aberdeen as well but since I'm being ignored in this thread I'll defer to you and RVABird to discuss his merits with ElGordo's pictures.

[Stotle]

I had him below average to first at Aberdeen as well but since I'm being ignored in this thread I'll defer to you and RVABird to discuss his merits with ElGordo's pictures.

Do you think he sticks at short long term, or rather do you have a feel for what odds you give?

[Frobby]

Jeter and Arod come to mind.

Jeter - 323 stolen bases, including 4 seasons over 30

ARod - 301 stolen bases, including a high of 46

I don't know what these guys rated on the "speed tool" when they were prospects, but you can pretty much be assured that they had better than average speed at the time.

[Stotle]

What I find interesting and worth some discussion is that Baseball America has Machado as the 14th best prospect in all of baseball and Stotle would have him rated as 17 in the 2011 draft, if he were in the 2011 draft. Suffice it to say, that seems like a pretty big difference of opinion. The 17th best player in this draft is likley not even a top 100 prospect next year.

I'm not sure how interesting the discussion would be. I think my thoughts on Machado are pretty well documented. I put him as around an average 3B at draft time -- maybe a 53/54 OFP. I think Lindor (Montverde HS, Montverde, Fla.) is the best SS in the 2011 class and is a slightly better prospect than Machado -- maybe a 54/55 OFP. Haven't sat down to grade out Lindor yet.

[Stotle]

Interstingly enough, Jeter with probably still above average speed, has been dogged his whole career about having no range at SS, while Ripken, who had below average speed, probably had better numbers as far as getting to more balls. Ripken is not necesarily credited with having great range but being in the right place at the right time. Still, I think this points out that speed isn't everything. Speed does not equal range. It can't hurt and most certainly helps. However, first step quickness and positioning are probably much more important. Time will tell, but most seem to think that Machado will have no problem sticking at SS, and that he has the instincts for the position.

If by "most" you mean Baseball America, sure. If you took a poll of SE Area Scouts who covered Machado last year you might get a different collection of thoughts. Don't know for sure.

[Frobby]

I'm not sure how interesting the discussion would be. I think my thoughts on Machado are pretty well documented. I put him as around an average 3B at draft time -- maybe a 53/54 OFP. I think Lindor (Montverde HS, Montverde, Fla.) is the best SS in the 2011 class and is a slightly better prospect than Machado -- maybe a 54/55 OFP. Haven't sat down to grade out Lindor yet.

What does OFP stand for? Is that some kind of average of all the tools? How is it calculated?

[MatthewW]

What does OFP stand for? Is that some kind of average of all the tools? How is it calculated?

Overall Future Potential on a 20-80 scale...

(What would I do without Google...)