Impressions from the B Team - Red Sox game

[flashjordnk]

Meh. A .700 very good defensive CF is probably about on par value-wise with a .780 OPS average defensive LF.

I'd be willing to debate you on the very good defensive part in Pie's case. I'd also be willing to say that Reimold's career OPS will land higher than that 780 you see now. I'm don't feel confident in saying that about Pie.

And I'd also be willing to say that we have a very good defensive CF. So the point being, we don't need a very good one to start and a backup one unless they are splitting time. Is it as valuable from a backup standpoint?

There are a lot of teams that agree with you though, and is part of the reason why I think we can get value for Pie now.

[ShaneDawg85]

I'd be willing to debate you on the very good defensive part in Pie's case. I'd also be willing to say that Reimold's career OPS will land higher than that 780 you see now. I'm don't feel confident in saying that about Pie.

And I'd also be willing to say that we have a very good defensive CF. So the point being, we don't need a very good one to start and a backup one unless they are splitting time. Is it as valuable from a backup standpoint?

There are a lot of teams that agree with you though, and is part of the reason why I think we can get value for Pie now.

You'll likely find many who would debate that claim. Jones can be a very good defensive player, but the last two seasons he has not been, regardless of what the Gold Glove might try and tell you.

[Singleton]

I think you are making the link too directly between Reimold and Vlad. Vlad was signed to be a clean up hitter. Reimold at this stage of his career is not a clean up hitter. That was the the stated goal of the O's over the winter and they accomplished it.

Of course that knocks Reimold out of the chance for a regular OF job barring injuries, but it is up to Buck to find him Reimold at bats. Gary Roenicke did not have be an everyday player to be valuable. Hitting lefthanded pitching, playing day games after night games, pinch hitting, and playing for injuried players over a long season should be enough to keep Reimold's timing down.

I'm not really following your first point. I'm not focused on whether Vlad was a good signing or not and I'm not saying Reimold is our cleanup hitter. I'm saying Vlad takes a spot in the lineup. Every day. Reimold can only play LF and DH which means you are either sitting Scott or Vlad. You said yourself that Vlad is our cleanup hitter. Scott led the team in HRs and was the "most valuable orioles", FWIW. I think Reimold needs to play every day and now there's no spot for him.

Gary Roenicke was in a pretty strict platoon with John Lowenstein. Are you platooning Reimold with Scott?

If the team believes in Reimold -- after 25 spring training ABs, it should have traded Scott over the winter. The team didn't trade Scott over the winter which tells me a) the team thinks Reimold needs to show them something in AAA or b) they don't really have a plan.

Take your pick.

[flashjordnk]

Teams who expect to contend don't even carry their "best 25." The Yankees weren't planning on carrying Jesus Montero (they may now because of injury). You think he's not better than most of their bench? The Rays may not keep Desmond Jennings. If a team doesn't have regular Abs for a prospect, they almost always send them to AAA to get their swings.

This was my earlier point about Tillman.

If Montero doesn't make the team it's because he doesn't know how to pick up a glove. They already have one degenerate fielding catcher in Posada. Why would the Yankees carry two?

If Montero doesn't make that team it will be because of a) service clock and b) he's still not sure how to put on a fielders glove.

As for the final bolded part. Just because teams do it. Doesn't mean it's right. That's a pretty silly assumption.

Also...a few notes about Jennings. His 756 OPS in the minors last year didn't do him any favors. After going 910 OPS in AAA two years ago, he didn't really do much to impress last year. He got a cup of coffee last year, and was miserable in the majors too. If he struggled in spring training, I'd probably send him down too. Also for clock reasons.

Montero and Jennings are on track to be stars. They service clock and money play more of a factor than Reimold's does as well. Also they didn't lead their MLB team in OPS through 450 ABs at any point in their careers.

[SrMeowMeow]

I'd be willing to debate you on the very good defensive part in Pie's case. I'd also be willing to say that Reimold's career OPS will land higher than that 780 you see now. I'm don't feel confident in saying that about Pie.

And I'd also be willing to say that we have a very good defensive CF. So the point being, we don't need a very good one to start and a backup one unless they are splitting time. Is it as valuable from a backup standpoint?

There are a lot of teams that agree with you though, and is part of the reason why I think we can get value for Pie now.

My point is, your actual opinion on the two seems to be based on not what Reimold and Pie have done so far, because they're probably close in value over their MLB careers. You just think Reimold will get better and Pie won't.

For the record, Fangraphs has Pie at 1.6 WAR and Reimold at 0.8 WAR, with Pie receiving about 1.6x as much playing time.

[El Gordo]

You'll likely find many who would debate that claim. Jones can be a very good defensive player, but the last two seasons he has not been, regardless of what the Gold Glove might try and tell you.

As long as people refuse to accept defensive metrics as an impartial evaluation, then these debates are meaningless. My eye is better than your eye, nyah, nyah.:rolleyestf:

[flashjordnk]

You'll likely find many who would debate that claim. Jones can be a very good defensive player, but the last two seasons he has not been, regardless of what the Gold Glove might try and tell you.

Right...that's kind of my point.

No one thinks Jones is a very good CFer. And I don't think anyone thinks Pie fits that category either. At least not on the Orioles.

If Pie is a better fielder than Jones we're not talking about miles and miles. My larger point was that 10 games of Pie's defense in CF won't make any substantial impact because of the presence of Jones.

Tony's on record talking about Angle's quality skills in CF.

Interesting question...if Pie had options would people support a trip to the minors for him?

[JERSEYORIOLE]

Are you cutting Pie to make room for Reimold? If you are, who plays CF when Jones needs a day off? If you keep Pie and Reimold, where does Reimold get his at bats?

I have the opposite site, if you keep Pie and Reimold, where does Pie get his at bats?

[El Gordo]

Right...that's kind of my point.

No one thinks Jones is a very good CFer. And I don't think anyone thinks Pie fits that category either. At least not on the Orioles.

If Pie is a better fielder than Jones we're not talking about miles and miles. My larger point was that 10 games of Pie's defense in CF won't make any substantial impact because of the presence of Jones.

Tony's on record talking about Angle's quality skills in CF.

Interesting question...if Pie had options would people support a trip to the minors for him?

If Pie had an option, whether I sent him down would not depoend on my opinion of Reimold, it would depend on my opinion of Angle. I would still have to have a defensive OF upgrade. The dirty little secret, that nobody seems to want to acknowledge, is our OF of Scott, Jones, and Markakis, is average at best with the glove. We need to have a defensive upgrade for LF at the very least.

[LookitsPuck]

Reimold is a butcher in left field. I don't think he'll ever be more than average there.

Pie at least gives you solid defense in LF and CF, and can play RF. He is also a great pinch runner. He can hit some. Kid can probably put up a 725-750 OPS. Is Reimold a better hitter? Duh. But he can light it up in ST and do absolutely nothing for us in the regular season.

[JERSEYORIOLE]

My point is, your actual opinion on the two seems to be based on not what Reimold and Pie have done so far, because they're probably close in value over their MLB careers. You just think Reimold will get better and Pie won't.

For the record, Fangraphs has Pie at 1.6 WAR and Reimold at 0.8 WAR, with Pie receiving about 1.6x as much playing time.

This is where I have a problem with WAR. I find it VERY hard to believe that anyone with eyes can say that Pie is a better baseball player then Reimold. It boggles my mind and stats like this make me doubt stats even more. I think Nolan is a much better player right now AND his upside is higher.

[flashjordnk]

My point is, your actual opinion on the two seems to be based on not what Reimold and Pie have done so far, because they're probably close in value over their MLB careers. You just think Reimold will get better and Pie won't.

For the record, Fangraphs has Pie at 1.6 WAR and Reimold at 0.8 WAR, with Pie receiving about 1.6x as much playing time.

Fair enough. Reimold in his first taste of MLB pitching over 400 ABs gave us 1.4 WAR according to BR.

I think that does deserve credit. Question about WAR, does it adjust for position internally when it's generated?

Reimold gave the O's 2.1 OWar that year (BR) Pie's best OWar is .6. I think the defense is debatable and more difficult to measure. But if Reimold has been 3.5 times the hitter his first go round in the Majors than Pie was in his 3rd, with 4 seasons to measure. I think that matters. And maybe I am underplaying the defensive asset. I'll accept that.

With Scott/Lee/Vlad all on this team do we really think Pie will log that many games in LF and RF?

[SrMeowMeow]

This is where I have a problem with WAR. I find it VERY hard to believe that anyone with eyes can say that Pie is a better baseball player then Reimold. It boggles my mind and stats like this make me doubt stats even more. I think Nolan is a much better player right now AND his upside is higher.

And that's why these stats are so valuable.

[Singleton]

This was my earlier point about Tillman.

If Montero doesn't make the team it's because he doesn't know how to pick up a glove. They already have one degenerate fielding catcher in Posada. Why would the Yankees carry two?

If Montero doesn't make that team it will be because of a) service clock and b) he's still not sure how to put on a fielders glove.

As for the final bolded part. Just because teams do it. Doesn't mean it's right. That's a pretty silly assumption.

Also...a few notes about Jennings. His 756 OPS in the minors last year didn't do him any favors. After going 910 OPS in AAA two years ago, he didn't really do much to impress last year. He got a cup of coffee last year, and was miserable in the majors too. If he struggled in spring training, I'd probably send him down too. Also for clock reasons.

Montero and Jennings are on track to be stars. They service clock and money play more of a factor than Reimold's does as well. Also they didn't lead their MLB team in OPS through 450 ABs at any point in their careers.

Wait...so you're giving me Jennings stats from last year as a reason he shouldn't start in the big leagues this year. You don't see the obvious contradiction in your Reimold argument? I guess we can ignore Reimold's 2010 but not Jennings.

As for Posada -- he's going to DH -- not catch. Montero has glove issues but he's hit like a mad man. Reimold has glove issues and his hitting and ability to stay on the field have been inconsistent. The Yankees are loaded with money. We're not. The Yankees are nearly certain to fight for a playoff spot -- meaning every game matters and the need to carry your best 25 should be greatest. We're not likely to fight for the playoffs and can more easily afford to be patient.

Aside from this, i see your point

[JERSEYORIOLE]

Reimold is a butcher in left field. I don't think he'll ever be more than average there.

Pie at least gives you solid defense in LF and CF, and can play RF. He is also a great pinch runner. He can hit some. Kid can probably put up a 725-750 OPS. Is Reimold a better hitter? Duh. But he can light it up in ST and do absolutely nothing for us in the regular season.

GREAT PINCH RUNNER? based on what? He is a horrible base stealer, Reimold is considerably better, look it up and Pie has terrible instincts. Last night he was on first when Bell Doubled. He should have scored. Or at least a GREAT pinch runner would have.