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Article on why Gary needs to be fired


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This is where you lose me. MD has slipped below VT? By whose standards? VT hasn't made the NCAA tourney at all in the last four years and they've made it once since 1995 (2007).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virginia_Tech_Hokies_men%27s_basketball

Miami has made the NCAA tourney once since 2002 (2008).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miami_Hurricanes_men%27s_basketball

BC has made the NCAA tourney one time in the last four years. During that period they've also finished with ACC records of 4-12 and 6-10.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boston_College_Eagles_men%27s_basketball

There are legitimate complaints with GW, but saying MD has slipped below these three programs just isn't true.

I just added them because of their combined record with Miami and BC is so good against the Terps since coming into the ACC. No way MD should have a losing record against any of those schools.

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Tony:

1. I'm not cherry-picking stats. I took the time (unlike anyone else in the thread) to go through 73 teams and see how many NCAA tournaments they had been to in the last five years. It took me a long time, and believe it or not, I don't have an infinite amount of time to spend on this. If someone else wants to present other information, they can be my guest.

2. I'm not a Gary Williams apologist. I didn't go to Maryland, I went to Duke. I have no stake in whether Gary stays or goes.

3. As a Duke fan, obviously I'm happy that Duke took a risk on a young, energetic coach named Mike Krzyzewski in 1981. But, I've also watched several of his top assistants, all highly touted, go to major programs with a lot of energy and have very mixed success -- Quin Snyder had some success at Missouri but caught up in some NCAA violations (if I recall correctly), Tommy Amaker went to Seton Hall and then Michigan and got no traction at either place (now he's doing well in the Ivy League), Jeff Capel did well at Virginia Commonwealth but just got fired at Oklahoma, David Henderson was fired after three years at Delaware, Johnny Dawkins is struggling a bit at Stanford. I've watched a ton of coaches come and go in the ACC, including quite a few who had success at lower profile programs but couldn't win in the ACC. Just look at the parade of coaches at UVa over the last 20 years. I'm simply saying, it's not that easy. Not nearly as easy as you seem to think it is.

You are simply jumping into an argument and the only thing you have proven is that Duke fans like Gary Williams for one reason and one reason only, MD is an afterthought as long as he's here.

Take your rep from the apologists and feel good about yourself, but in the end, you are just another non-MD fan who likes Williams because of his rep, and ignore his blatant disregard for recruiting. Sorry, but you might have gotten some rep from the Bterps of the world, but you just lost respect from me on this subject.

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Just for facts' sake, looking through the records at Sports Reference's college basketball site, I'm coming up with 10-20 for Maryland against those three schools since the 2004-05 season. I could be reading that wrong, though; where did you get that record?

Got that from a guest on the Davis-Norris show but still, 10-20 is terrible. The point is valid.

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I say that, in the unlikely even that Jordan Williams comes back for his senior season, Maryland will be in the Elite 8, at the very least. (barring and big injuries). I guarantee it.

Tell you what, I'll make you a bet. If Williams comes back and the Terps make it to at least the elite 8, I'll put "Gary Williams is a God and I should bow down before his greatness" in my signature for a month.

If they don't, you must put, "I was wrong, and I now admit Gary Williams needs to go." for one month...

Deal?

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I say that, in the unlikely even that Jordan Williams comes back for his senior season, Maryland will be in the Elite 8, at the very least. (barring and big injuries). I guarantee it.

Is this what UMD bball has come to. Now we have to wait at least 2 more years before we are in the Elite 8?

Personally, I want us in the Elite 8/Final 4 every year.

Unrealistic? Maybe, but that's the type of program I want UMD to be. Elite, not slightly above average and needing all the chips to fall just right to make it to the 3rd weekend of the NCAA's.

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You are simply jumping into an argument and the only thing you have proven is that Duke fans like Gary Williams for one reason and one reason only, MD is an afterthought as long as he's here.

Take your rep from the apologists and feel good about yourself, but in the end, you are just another non-MD fan who likes Williams because of his rep, and ignore his blatant disregard for recruiting. Sorry, but you might have gotten some rep from the Bterps of the world, but you just lost respect from me on this subject.

That's a load of garbage. For the record, I haven't gotten rep from anyone, nor do I care at all about getting rep. I'm expressing my opinion and I have cited facts and examples to back it up.

Just so it's crystal clear, I grew up in Maryland and was a Terps fan first for the first 20 years of my life, until I went to Duke and that became my primary allegiance. I still root for Maryland when they aren't playing Duke. I'd much rather have them be a good team and not an afterthought.

And, I've said multiple times in this thread that I'm not arguing that Gary has to stay. I'm merely pointing out that there's a good chance that Maryland will get worse, not better, by changing coaches.

Now, SG has pointed out that even if Maryland risks getting worse, they might need to take that chance in order to also have the opportunity to get better. I get that logic, but to make that choice, you have to analyze the odds of getting better and the odds of getting worse. You seem to think it's highly unlikely they get worse. I think it's more likely they get worse than that they get better. I see it this way:

Odds that another coach will build Maryland into a true powerhouse that is a final four threat every year: 1-2%

Odds that another coach will return the program to where it was in Lefty's or Gary's heyday: 20%

Odds that another coach will do about as well as Gary has done recently: 30-35%

Odds that another coach will do a bit worse than Gary has done recently: 25-30%

Odds that another coach will be a dud and make the team significantly worse than it is now: 15-20%

I am basing my odds just based on my observations of what goes on when teams change coaches, and based on where Maryland stands now. Someone else might feel like the odds are different from what I think they are.

If my odds are right, do you take the risk rather than accepting the status quo? Some people probably would. But it's not an easy decision, if this is how you see the odds.

By the way, today Maryland signed a major recruit for the incoming class of 2012: http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/recruiting-insider/post/justin_anderson_talks_about_choosing_maryland/2011/03/17/ABtt8Km_blog.html?wprss=recruiting-insider

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Is this what UMD bball has come to. Now we have to wait at least 2 more years before we are in the Elite 8?

Personally, I want us in the Elite 8/Final 4 every year.

Unrealistic? Maybe, but that's the type of program I want UMD to be. Elite, not slightly above average and needing all the chips to fall just right to make it to the 3rd weekend of the NCAA's.

Go root for Kentucky then. Seriously. They fired Tubby Smith, whose great sin was losing in the second round of the tournament three years of four. They hired Billy Gillispie, then fired him after one tournament and one NIT appearance, than sold their soul to Calipari.

Your expectations will fit in perfectly well with those fans.

Even if the expectations should be higher than Maryland's present state, they should NEVER be THAT high. You are just setting yourself up for disappointment and to dislike ANY coach or players that come through.

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You are simply jumping into an argument and the only thing you have proven is that Duke fans like Gary Williams for one reason and one reason only, MD is an afterthought as long as he's here.

Take your rep from the apologists and feel good about yourself, but in the end, you are just another non-MD fan who likes Williams because of his rep, and ignore his blatant disregard for recruiting. Sorry, but you might have gotten some rep from the Bterps of the world, but you just lost respect from me on this subject.

There is a certain other board I used to post on occasionally where I was known as a "Tony Pente apologist" because of my support for this board.

But I guess apologists aren't simply based on one's point of view, and are always a bad thing :noidea:

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I want to add something else: I personally think Gary has a lot of flaws. He's not a very good recuiter anymore, which I guess is the main criticism expressed by others. But I also think he has difficulty keeping his teams on an even keel. He'll get them sky-high for Duke or Carolina, and then lose some game to a totally inferior team the next week. He's a very emotional guy and some times his teams are too emotional. So, I'm not an apologist for the guy. I'm just saying there are a lot of coaches who aren't as good, and if Maryland rolls the dice, they easily could get one of them.

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I want to add something else: I personally think Gary has a lot of flaws. He's not a very good recuiter anymore, which I guess is the main criticism expressed by others. But I also think he has difficulty keeping his teams on an even keel. He'll get them sky-high for Duke or Carolina, and then lose some game to a totally inferior team the next week. He's a very emotional guy and some times his teams are too emotional. So, I'm not an apologist for the guy. I'm just saying there are a lot of coaches who aren't as good, and if Maryland rolls the dice, they easily could get one of them.

Yep. And as I've been saying and you pointed out as well, the chances that they get one of them are at least as likely, if not far more so, than finding the next Gary Williams.

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Is this what UMD bball has come to. Now we have to wait at least 2 more years before we are in the Elite 8?

Personally, I want us in the Elite 8/Final 4 every year.

Unrealistic? Maybe, but that's the type of program I want UMD to be. Elite, not slightly above average and needing all the chips to fall just right to make it to the 3rd weekend of the NCAA's.

I'd like us to have a program like that, but I certainly don't expect it nor would I hold a coach to those standards.

Maryland should be a perennial Top-25 team, be in the NCAA's every year and should have numerous sweet 16 teams. An occasional elite 8 and final four should be expected as well.

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I'd like us to have a program like that, but I certainly don't expect it nor would I hold a coach to those standards.

Maryland should be a perennial Top-25 team, be in the NCAA's every year and should have numerous sweet 16 teams. An occasional elite 8 and final four should be expected as well.

This is much more realistic.

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Rewind... Gary just got James Gist and has a Dino Gregory, Tucker, and Mosely on the radar. What say you haters now? :P

The problem with Gary has been

A. He was losing recruits who verballed to us (Jennings,Ross,Evans, Walker)

B. Bringing in huge projects, guys who weren't close to ACC level (Goings, Walker, Burney, Dupree)

C. Too many role players(Neal,Tucker, Bowie, Gregory,etc)

D. Not putting together back to back decent classes leaving himself vulnerable after what talent he did have left.

Now, as someone who has been very critical of Gary and his recruiting, the talent he is bringing in now appears to be much better than it was from 2004- 2008. I mean it ultimately still has to play out on the court but I really like this core for the next 2 or 3 years. IMO, he has put together two solid back to back years with the '10 and '11 class and he is off to a good start in '12 with Anderson. That doesn't even include the 2 years we possibly have left from the '09 class in Jordan Williams. I also really don't see any huge projects in the '10 or '11 classes(some would argue Breuning but I don't think he's a project at all). I'm not anywhere close to going out on a limb to say we'll be in the Elite 8 in the next few years. Gary's done that twice in his whole career and it was with the same core group with the '01 and '02 class. I do however think this group has the potential to do it, which is the first time I can say that since the '03 season.

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The problem with Gary has been

A. He was losing recruits who verballed to us (Jennings,Ross,Evans, Walker)

B. Bringing in huge projects, guys who weren't close to ACC level (Goings, Walker, Burney, Dupree)

C. Too many role players(Neal,Tucker, Bowie, Gregory,etc)

D. Not putting together back to back decent classes leaving himself vulnerable after what talent he did have left.

Now, as someone who has been very critical of Gary and his recruiting, the talent he is bringing in now appears to be much better than it was from 2004- 2008. I mean it ultimately still has to play out on the court but I really like this core for the next 2 or 3 years. IMO, he has put together two solid back to back years with the '10 and '11 class and he is off to a good start in '12 with Anderson. That doesn't even include the 2 years we possibly have left from the '09 class in Jordan Williams. I also really don't see any huge projects in the '10 or '11 classes(some would argue Breuning but I don't think he's a project at all). I'm not anywhere close to going out on a limb to say we'll be in the Elite 8 in the next few years. Gary's done that twice in his whole career and it was with the same core group with the '01 and '02 class. I do however think this group has the potential to do it, which is the first time I can say that since the '03 season.

I don't really follow the recruits and I really don't care where they are ranked before they get here. What I care about is how they perform once they do get here. I've heard about "great classes" 1000 times before and I've seen the results. Until I see a difference in talent on the floor and difference in the Terps success, I'll remain skeptical. Just like in baseball, having prospects is nice, but that doesn't mean anything until they produce for your big league club.

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