Was Manny a life long cheat like Canseco?

[Skeletor]

I love how you guys are using one extreme example to make your point. Tons of guys have used steroids over the past 15 years yet the effects generally were not so drastic.

There have been plenty of studies done on this and I'm confident in my position.

I see these guys everyday in my line of work and if you saw the strength gains and the size these guys put on and watched the transformation...I don't think you would be minimizing the effects of steroids. These guys are ridiculously strong.

[ledzepp8]

I love how you guys are using one extreme example to make your point. Tons of guys have used steroids over the past 15 years yet the effects generally were not so drastic.

There have been plenty of studies done on this and I'm confident in my position.

Well for starters, you're the one that brought up Bonds.

And second, what studies? What kind of studies could they do in regards to the effects of steroids? It's not like they can run an experiment by having baseball players take illegal substances.

[mweb]

Well for starters, you're the one that brought up Bonds.

And second, what studies? What kind of studies could they do in regards to the effects of steroids? It's not like they can run an experiment by having baseball players take illegal substances.

Wrong.

I'm not saying they're definitive studies like the hypothetical experiments you're talking about, but there have been various studies on PED's as well as the very informative and interesting study/analysis of steroids in baseball along with juiced balls and many other things, which was posted on here awhile back.

[mweb]

I see these guys everyday in my line of work and if you saw the strength gains and the size these guys put on and watched the transformation...I don't think you would be minimizing the effects of steroids. These guys are ridiculously strong.

I'm not saying they have little effect on people, I'm saying they have less effect on baseball players than what some people seem to think and there is plenty of analysis that I've read that leads me to believe that. The Bonds situation is an outlier in baseball, not the norm.

BTW, any response to this: It's not just about greenies, plenty of guys took steroids as early as the 60's. Now, were they as effective as the current ones? No, but that is totally irrelevant in terms of the severity of the "crime" or "cheating."

[OFFNY]

I actually enjoyed watching Bonds play a lot more before he started juicing (1986-1998). He had over 500 career stolen bases, he was lean and athletic, and he was a rare blend of power and speed that I also saw with players like Eric Davis and Darryl Strawberry (when he wasn't drinking and drugging). Yes, he hit a gazillion home runs after he turned into the Michelin Man, but he was much slower and much less mobile on the basepaths and in the field. Before the steroids, he was an incredible athlete.

http://images.usatoday.com/sports/baseball/_photos/2006-07-12-bonds.jpg

[Blizzard1090]

Manny has been caught three times using steroids/peds. No way should he be anywhere near the hall,as most of his numbers were helped along with chemicals.

[ledzepp8]

Wrong.

I'm not saying they're definitive studies like the hypothetical experiments you're talking about, but there have been various studies on PED's as well as the very informative and interesting study/analysis of steroids in baseball along with juiced balls and many other things, which was posted on here awhile back.

Really? Who brought him up?

I'm not saying there are no "studies". I'm just saying what kind of studies could there really be? Like I said, it's not like they could actually have an experiment where they're giving a group of baseball players PEDs.

[orayole]

I don't know...but I do know he should be a HOFer and it shouldn't even be a question.

Yes it is a question. Anyone caught cheating shouldn't make it in.

Sure there's going to be some people that did cheat and weren't caught that are in or will be in there but 2 wrongs don't make a right. If we found out someone in the HOF cheated I'd want them out. If we can prevent a cheater from making it in, then don't let them in. If that means an entire generation goes by without anyone going in, then I'm all for it.

Innocent until proven guilty, but when I find out you're guilty, you're out.

[KM3161]

in NYC-Washington Heights where Manny grew up is/was a very drug infested neighborhood. Sold openly on the street. He was a superstar in high school but dropped out. Just my opinion but I think it's safe to say Manny was on something even back in high school. He just continued his ways right up until his latest failed test.

[mweb]

Really? Who brought him up?

I'm not saying there are no "studies". I'm just saying what kind of studies could there really be? Like I said, it's not like they could actually have an experiment where they're giving a group of baseball players PEDs.

Russ did and that shouldn't have been difficult to figure out since when I first talked about Bonds it was in direct response to him bringing him up.

Well you could have looked at studies if you wanted to, but from my experience most people who have very anti-steroid positions don't care to read any studies and just dismiss most of what they say anyway if they do read some of it or are presented with some info.

[mweb]

Yes it is a question. Anyone caught cheating shouldn't make it in.

Sure there's going to be some people that did cheat and weren't caught that are in or will be in there but 2 wrongs don't make a right. If we found out someone in the HOF cheated I'd want them out. If we can prevent a cheater from making it in, then don't let them in. If that means an entire generation goes by without anyone going in, then I'm all for it.

Innocent until proven guilty, but when I find out you're guilty, you're out.

Better take out a lot of guys in the HOF then.

[DrungoHazewood]

Imagine what Mantle would've done with HgH. The stuff is a magic potion. And the steroids they come up with these days turned a middle of the pack HoFer into the best player of the past 130 years in his late 30s.

How do you know he didn't? Ok, maybe not HgH (which may be of limited effectiveness anyway), but steroids were available during Mantle's career. By the end of his career steroids and other PEDs above and beyond greenies were absolutely used by lots of athletes in other sports (biking, Olympics). I think it's naive to think they weren't used in MLB.

At 36, as a raging alcoholic, Mantle still had a 142 OPS+. I've seen less evidence used to call someone a PED abuser.

And, no, I'm not overstating the effects of modern steroids. If taken under the care of someone who knows what they're doing (like BALCO, for instance) they are amazingly effective.

But what's amazingly effective mean to a baseball player? We have anectodal evidence that it turns someone who's already a HOFer in to a HOFer+, and that it turns Alex Sanchez into, well, a guy with five times as many career sac hits as home runs.

I think best you can say is that it has some positive performance effects on many players. Anything more than that is speculation.

Yes it is a question. Anyone caught cheating shouldn't make it in.

Sure there's going to be some people that did cheat and weren't caught that are in or will be in there but 2 wrongs don't make a right. If we found out someone in the HOF cheated I'd want them out. If we can prevent a cheater from making it in, then don't let them in. If that means an entire generation goes by without anyone going in, then I'm all for it.

Innocent until proven guilty, but when I find out you're guilty, you're out.

My problem with this is that you're punishing the stupid and/or unlucky, while giving a pass to the guys who were smart and/or lucky enough to avoid detection. Or overlooking those rich and connected enough to get the undetectable stuff.

And what's your standard for guilt? On-the-record drug tests? Leaked results from private testing? Being named in a book or an article? Being named by Jose Canseco? Being teammates with someone who was caught? Or maybe the Bagwell threshold - having a career that seemed unlikely at an early age? And does one incident ban you forever? Any leeway for guys who admitted it, took their punishment (if any), and were apparently clean afterwards?

I just don't see how you use the same death penalty (lifetime HOF ban) for a guy who was suspected of taking stuff once or twice, and for someone who was caught red-handed taking horse-strength designer steroids for 10 years. Especially since baseball's general attitude towards PEDs up until about 2005 was "yea, whatever".

[orayole]

My problem with this is that you're punishing the stupid and/or unlucky, while giving a pass to the guys who were smart and/or lucky enough to avoid detection. Or overlooking those rich and connected enough to get the undetectable stuff.

And what's your standard for guilt? On-the-record drug tests? Leaked results from private testing? Being named in a book or an article? Being named by Jose Canseco? Being teammates with someone who was caught? Or maybe the Bagwell threshold - having a career that seemed unlikely at an early age? And does one incident ban you forever? Any leeway for guys who admitted it, took their punishment (if any), and were apparently clean afterwards?

I just don't see how you use the same death penalty (lifetime HOF ban) for a guy who was suspected of taking stuff once or twice, and for someone who was caught red-handed taking horse-strength designer steroids for 10 years. Especially since baseball's general attitude towards PEDs up until about 2005 was "yea, whatever".

My problem is that people have a problem punishing the guilty. Should we let people out of prison because some people were able to get away with murder? Of course not.

They were caught, their punishment is no HOF. Anything that proves they cheated is proof.

Better take out a lot of guys in the HOF then.

Fine with me.

[Skeletor]

They were caught, their punishment is no HOF. Anything that proves they cheated is proof.

No, their punishment is a 50 game suspension. I'm pretty pro-steroids in the HoF. I'm pretty convinced at least 50% of players in the last 25 years have done it. I think the side effects are pretty overblown. If I was playing and they were legal or not testing, I would have taken them. Too much money not to.

[DrungoHazewood]

My problem is that people have a problem punishing the guilty. Should we let people out of prison because some people were able to get away with murder? Of course not.

They were caught, their punishment is no HOF. Anything that proves they cheated is proof.

Fine with me.

Ok, you realize your position means that dozens, perhaps a hundred, current HOFers need to be thoroughly scrutinized and potentially thrown out. We know steroids have been around since at least the 40s, greenies just as long, other drugs even longer. Hank Aaron admitted to taking greenies, Willie Mays was implicated by testimony in the Pittsburgh drug trials of the 80s. Pud Galvin took a primitive steroid in the 1880s and bragged about it. If you want a truly clean Hall almost everyone is eligible for scrutiny.

I have a problem punishing the guilty when we're 100% sure we can't come close to catching everyone, and a few short years ago no one cared. This means the difference between eternal baseball glory and damnation is more-or-less luck. Going forward, with clear rules and better testing, that's fine. Manny is just stupid, he gets what he deserves. But ex post facto rules are unworkable and ridiculously unfair.