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Orioles attendance so far -- not encouraging


Frobby

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Just in general.

If the Orioles sell 1.9M tickets this year, how many of those tickets are sold before the season starts?

More than half, I'd imagine. 55-60%? Maybe more for better teams. Although this is largely irrelevant given the numbers I posted throughout this thread (see: Rays increase in ticket sales the immediate year after they sucked all kinds of hard).

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More than half, I'd imagine. 55-60%? Maybe more for better teams. Although this is largely irrelevant given the numbers I posted throughout this thread (see: Rays increase in ticket sales the immediate year after they sucked all kinds of hard).
Well then here is some advice...Stop talking about this because you are way off.

Prior to the season starting, most group tickets are already sold and pretty much all season tickets are sold...even most of the packages.

They average 3000ish walk ups a game...That is 240K tickets or so. Maybe you get another 20-60K, which would be a lot.

Even if you want to say 300K sold after OD.

If you bring in 2M fans, that's 85% of tickets sold before the season starts.

That's how it works.

So, the fact that the weather hasn't been great is meaningless in the grand scheme of things. They MAY have sold another few thousand tickets but its basically nothing in terms of real attendance numbers.

So yes, it goes back to them sucking because tickets are sold preseason.

That is why most teams that haven't been good don't see the big boost in sales until the next year...that is when they have momentum.

So, the next time you want to call someone naive, learn something about the subject and don't try to go against someone who not only worked this but still has contacts in the warehouse and discuss these things with those who are working there right now.

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Well then here is some advice...Stop talking about this because you are way off.

Prior to the season starting, most group tickets are already sold and pretty much all season tickets are sold...even most of the packages.

They average 3000ish walk ups a game...That is 240K tickets or so. Maybe you get another 20-60K, which would be a lot.

Even if you want to say 300K sold after OD.

If you bring in 2M fans, that's 85% of tickets sold before the season starts.

That's how it works.

So, the fact that the weather hasn't been great is meaningless in the grand scheme of things. They MAY have sold another few thousand tickets but its basically nothing in terms of real attendance numbers.

So yes, it goes back to them sucking because tickets are sold preseason.

That is why most teams that haven't been good don't see the big boost in sales until the next year...that is when they have momentum.

So, the next time you want to call someone naive, learn something about the subject and don't try to go against someone who not only worked this but still has contacts in the warehouse and discuss these things with those who are working there right now.

Please tell me, what were the EXACT percentage of season tickets sold before the season started? You have access to this information, no? Please provide the last few seasons.

Furthermore, your information is incorrect. You completely ignore the Tampa Bay Rays. What accounts for this:

2007: 66-96 17,131 fans [average] - 1,387,603 total

2008: 97-63 22,370 fans [average] - 1,811,986 total

That's more than 400k from a team that didn't have a single winning season until 2008. And you want to spatter off at the mouth and bring up irrelevant numbers AND not give the actual percentage? Truth be told:

You were faced with a myriad of reasons from me why the Orioles attendance is down (including them not being great over the last 13 years), however, you choose to discount ALL of them and focus ENTIRELY on the weather point that I made. Then, I post that attendance is down COMPLETELY across all of MLB, and that sports attendance has been down overall, and you just completely ignore it.

And I give you numbers showing you the Tampa Bay Rays (of all teams) who have not had a single winning season until 2008, turn it around and draw an average of more than 5,000 fans a game THE SEASON AFTER THEY HAD A 66-96 RECORD. And you completely ignore that.

So, nice try, bub. You are naive. Sorry. And hey, next time you negative rep someone for calling you naive, I hope every person negative reps you for how negatively you treat people on here. You are a complete and utter joke.

When did you work for the Orioles again? Your supposed "hook-ups"..lol.

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Reading more articles:

In 2004: 1.7 million before opening day. 2.75 million the entire season. That's roughly 62% before the season started, pretty close to my 55-60% guestimate.

If you're saying they get 3k walkups a game, that's 243k via walkups. If you're claiming 85% of all tickets are sold before the season starts, THEN:

1.7 million in 2010, then you're claiming 1.445 million tickets were sold before the season even started in 2010. I'd say 85% is very high.

It's probably more along the lines of 65% on average. You can't just use walk-ups in a vacuum. Those numbers fluctuate, and ticket sales can change dramatically due to a variety of things:

1. Winning vs. losing during the season (the Rays are a perfect example of a team whose numbers dramatically changed the year immediately after a 66 win season)

2. Weather (especially with such small sample size as 23 games or whatever it is). Weather isn't the biggest factor, but it plays a big part during a small sample size. Over the course of a year it'll even itself out.

3. Economy (something you CAN'T ignore as it's been a problem for all sports, and even MLB this year)

4. Promotions (if teams do better promotions, i.e. cheaper tickets and what not, sales will increase. Period.)

5. Changes in technology, i.e. more and more people would rather watch the game at home. Same thing with the NFL.

And a myriad of other things. Losing is a big part of it, but let's not play the all knowing card and claim it as the only reason. A team isn't selling 85% of its tickets due to the team sucking. It's more along the lines of 65-70%. That number can increase or decrease depending upon the winning/losing ways of the team, and the overall attendance throughout the year changes for a variety of factors. It's not a linear thing throughout the entire season.

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The answer is simple. If the O's win, fans will flock to Camden Yards. If they don't start showing more then they have so far, they won't. Taking a family to the game costs a fortune. Who wants to pay $200 to see a .500 or worse team in this economy? Personally, I believe that the attendance depends on the Orioles ability to compete. If they are in a pennant race, the fans will show. If not, they will approximate the last couple of years.

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The answer is simple. If the O's win, fans will flock to Camden Yards. If they don't start showing more then they have so far, they won't. Taking a family to the game costs a fortune. Who wants to pay $200 to see a .500 or worse team in this economy? Personally, I believe that the attendance depends on the Orioles ability to compete. If they are in a pennant race, the fans will show. If not, they will approximate the last couple of years.

That's precisely it, though. Winning creates ticket sales. And it's immediate. It's not just the year after a meaningful season. If you're winning, you're going to drive more sales. Fans are relatively short-sighted. and if they start seeing winning for a decent stretch of time (a month or so..), you'll start drawing fans. My main points that were made prior to the crapfest that is going on now is that it's incredibly tough to blame one thing on the decreased attendance in such a very short period of time. 13 games? Or whatever it was at the time of the article is only 16% of the games played at home. When in that time there were already what...2 postponed games? At least 1 rain delay, and a myriad of other poor days...then yes...weather is going to play an impact. The economy is playing another part. Technology is another part. 13 losing seasons is another part . And so on and so forth. But truth be told, it is entirely WAY too soon to draw any conclusions and say it's due to one reason altogether.

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That's precisely it, though. Winning creates ticket sales. And it's immediate. It's not just the year after a meaningful season. If you're winning, you're going to drive more sales. Fans are relatively short-sighted. and if they start seeing winning for a decent stretch of time (a month or so..), you'll start drawing fans. My main points that were made prior to the crapfest that is going on now is that it's incredibly tough to blame one thing on the decreased attendance in such a very short period of time. 13 games? Or whatever it was at the time of the article is only 16% of the games played at home. When in that time there were already what...2 postponed games? At least 1 rain delay, and a myriad of other poor days...then yes...weather is going to play an impact. The economy is playing another part. Technology is another part. 13 losing seasons is another part . And so on and so forth. But truth be told, it is entirely WAY too soon to draw any conclusions and say it's due to one reason altogether.

Winning solves everything. Expectations play a part, but as we have seen this season, a small part. This team is much better then the last few years, but fans are fickle and you need the casual fans to climb over the 2 million mark. You don't get them without competing. I have a 13 game plan and sit in seats that were previously unavailable to anyone other then corporations and law firms. Every time a go to a game, I marvel at the location of my seats. Section 36, row 22, right behind the plate. I'm right in the middle of players families and ex players. Amazing...

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Furthermore, your information is incorrect. You completely ignore the Tampa Bay Rays. What accounts for this:

2007: 66-96 17,131 fans [average] - 1,387,603 total

2008: 97-63 22,370 fans [average] - 1,811,986 total

That's more than 400k from a team that didn't have a single winning season until 2008. And you want to spatter off at the mouth and bring up irrelevant numbers AND not give the actual percentage?

Fors tof info, my info pertains to the Orioles...i do not know how it works for other teams. Secondly, the rule of thumb is always the boost in attendance happens the year after. I never said that if you are having a playoff year, that you can't see a boost in walk up sales/in season ticket sales.

Since a huge majority of tickets are sold preseason, its common sense that this is the case. TB could be a different case due to population, the demographics, etc...I am not sure. They have still only had 1.8M in the last few years, so that may be their ceiling anyway.

You were faced with a myriad of reasons from me why the Orioles attendance is down (including them not being great over the last 13 years), however, you choose to discount ALL of them and focus ENTIRELY on the weather point that I made. Then, I post that attendance is down COMPLETELY across all of MLB, and that sports attendance has been down overall, and you just completely ignore it.
First of all, I am not discounting those other reasons...They all play a part in this. But remember, the economy was booming years ago and the Orioles will still seeing declining attendance numbers...Why? Because they sucked. That is always the by far and away #1 issue and nothing is close.

YOU are the one who turned the conversation away from the weather...This started off by me responding to this:

Weather all across baseball has been horrendous. I'm curious what the average rates for all teams are at this rate compared to last year. Anyone have that data?
The weather has nothing to do with it...The tickets for the games have already been sold for the most part. Now, you may have had people not buy tickets in the preseason for early games because of weather and things like that..but again, you are talking about a very minimal amount in the grand scheme of things.
And I give you numbers showing you the Tampa Bay Rays (of all teams) who have not had a single winning season until 2008, turn it around and draw an average of more than 5,000 fans a game THE SEASON AFTER THEY HAD A 66-96 RECORD. And you completely ignore that.
You gave on example of a team, with terrible fans who was having a historic turnaround. What am I supposed to get out of that? What is that supposed to prove?

If the Orioles were to give 300 million to Fielder for 5 years and he was worth that contract, does that mean they should make it a habit of giving out 60M a year contracts?

You want the exception to be the rule, not the other way around.

So, nice try, bub. You are naive. Sorry. And hey, next time you negative rep someone for calling you naive, I hope every person negative reps you for how negatively you treat people on here. You are a complete and utter joke.
I neg repped you because of the type of person you are and the fact that I can't stand you.

And you bringing it up on the board just re-affirms my stance on how pathetic you are.

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Reading more articles:

In 2004: 1.7 million before opening day. 2.75 million the entire season. That's roughly 62% before the season started, pretty close to my 55-60% guestimate.

What article?
It's probably more along the lines of 65% on average. You can't just use walk-ups in a vacuum. Those numbers fluctuate, and ticket sales can change dramatically due to a variety of things:
Sure...the walkups can vary. But, again, you are trying to pick out exceptions, not rules. You just don't seem to understand how this works, which is fine...For whatever reason, you seem to think I am making this up, even though I have been saying the same things on this board since I worked down there.

Now, since I worked there, they have introduced more in season packages I believe...Maybe they get a big boost from that stuff.

But the group sales and season ticket sales are the lifeblood of the organization's ticket sales.

Year in and year out, they know what group tickets they are going to sell. Its essentially the same every year. Now, maybe some of that is bought in season and since they know that, they project that into their preseason sales even though some may be sold after the season starts.

Why do you think the Orioles do so much to get people to buy season tickets? Why do you think they value those fans over the others? Why do you think they have the orange carpet program?

Its because season tickets are the incredibly important...They make a huge majority of your ticket sales. When you see a paltry crowd of 12K on a wed night, most of those fans are there with season tickets. That was one of the nights in the 13 game plan and of course, the 81 game plan.

The Orioles know that most fans aren't walking up to 10, 15, 50 games...it doesn't happen.

But if you have season tickets, then those seats are sold.

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What article?

Sure...the walkups can vary. But, again, you are trying to pick out exceptions, not rules. You just don't seem to understand how this works, which is fine...For whatever reason, you seem to think I am making this up, even though I have been saying the same things on this board since I worked down there.

Now, since I worked there, they have introduced more in season packages I believe...Maybe they get a big boost from that stuff.

But the group sales and season ticket sales are the lifeblood of the organization's ticket sales.

Year in and year out, they know what group tickets they are going to sell. Its essentially the same every year. Now, maybe some of that is bought in season and since they know that, they project that into their preseason sales even though some may be sold after the season starts.

Why do you think the Orioles do so much to get people to buy season tickets? Why do you think they value those fans over the others? Why do you think they have the orange carpet program?

Its because season tickets are the incredibly important...They make a huge majority of your ticket sales. When you see a paltry crowd of 12K on a wed night, most of those fans are there with season tickets. That was one of the nights in the 13 game plan and of course, the 81 game plan.

The Orioles know that most fans aren't walking up to 10, 15, 50 games...it doesn't happen.

But if you have season tickets, then those seats are sold.

Once again, you are evading the points and my questions.

I don't have to work in sales to know how it works. It's human psychology. Winning creates fans. That's the simplistic part of it. However, what you ignore (and HAVE been ignoring) is that there are short term factors in play.

If in 5 home games, the weather was terrible for 2 of them, would the average attendance be accurate against the entire year? I'm curious if you'd even answer this. There have been 23 games, at the point of this thread we've had the following games:

3 against the Tigers

3 against the Rangers

4 against the Twins

3 against the Yankees

1? against the BoSox

For a total of: 14 games. That is 17% of the home games of the season. Not exactly the end all determinant. And even better:

1 of the Yankees games were postponed

1 of the Rangers games were postponed and made up the following game during a double header

1 of the Yankees games had crappy weather the entire day

2 other games had poor weather

That's a total of 5 of the 14 home games with bad weather, or 35% of the home games.

Weather plays a part in short term statistical data. It's just the way it works, because large variances in attendance can affect the average. It's not hard to understand. THEN, you throw in the following:

1. The Red Sox poor start. When the Red Sox are not playing well, their fans do not come out. Period. Look at the average attendance at Red Sox games that correspond to their losing (traveling, obviously not at home).

2. Economy. Ticket sales are down across ALL of MLB. There are only 9 teams out of 30 (see: 30%) that actually have attendance that is up. Hell, one of the teams that have attendance that is down is the Yankees.

3. Weather as said above (short term, can't use it once the year is over)

4. Losing

And a few other small things here and there that I don't feel like diving into.

Problem is, I've been using these points the entire thread. You're harping on a weather comment that I made that wasn't said to be used as an end-all-be-all, yet you're harping on it as such.

I asked you a few questions:

1. When did you work for the Orioles

2. What were the actual percentage of tickets sold before the seasons started over the last few years

You have "hookups" at the Orioles, ask them. If you won't, I'll ask my season ticket represent or some of my "hookups". It's not hard, SportsGuy. Talk the talk, please walk the walk.

Discounting the Rays entirely in a state that is known for terrible sports attendance is just hilarious. You don't even need to have a playoff run, you just need to have a winning season when your team has been horrible. Short term success will work wonders.

Anyways, my points above still stand. They may be "exceptions" to the rule by themselves, but together (and especially in a small sample size) they're incredibly useful to explain attendance as it pertains to the Orioles (and beyond). Your blanket statement of the team sucking is just being ignorant and naive. And I'll keep saying it until the cows come home.

As for the article:

http://articles.baltimoresun.com/2005-03-24/sports/0503240155_1_orioles-camden-yards-million-tickets

They sold 1.7 million 11 days before Opening Day in 2004.

In 2004 they ended up drawing 2.75 million fans.

That's 61.8% of sales. I don't know about you, but my guestimates of 55-60% is much closer to 61.8% than your 85% shot in the dark (I thought you worked there?)

Now, obviously that's *1* year, and there are a variety of factors at play, here. But it's not data that I can reasonably find online. However, I can certainly get that information, but you've worked there, I'm sure you have it, right? Right?

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Problem is, I've been using these points the entire thread. You're harping on a weather comment that I made that wasn't said to be used as an end-all-be-all, yet you're harping on it as such.

Actually, that is what I addressed first because you seemed to blame it on the weather to begin with...and that's moronic.
I asked you a few questions:

1. When did you work for the Orioles

2. What were the actual percentage of tickets sold before the seasons started over the last few years

2001-2003...Don't know the exact %.
You have "hookups" at the Orioles, ask them. If you won't, I'll ask my season ticket represent or some of my "hookups". It's not hard, SportsGuy. Talk the talk, please walk the walk.
I don't need to ask them...because I don't care.

However, when I had this conversation a few years back with a guy who was there for years, was involved in many facets of the club, he told me the same things I knew before I talked to him and the same things I am saying now.

Discounting the Rays entirely in a state that is known for terrible sports attendance is just hilarious. You don't even need to have a playoff run, you just need to have a winning season when your team has been horrible. Short term success will work wonders.
All I am saying is that I can only speak to how it works in Baltimore. Again, your argument is based around exceptions.
Anyways, my points above still stand. They may be "exceptions" to the rule by themselves, but together (and especially in a small sample size) they're incredibly useful to explain attendance as it pertains to the Orioles (and beyond). Your blanket statement of the team sucking is just being ignorant and naive. And I'll keep saying it until the cows come home.
No its not...It explains overall attendance and why it is down and has been down for years.

When people say they are tired of paying to see a loser, what do you think that means? Do you think that means the economy and weather is stopping them from going?

They sold 1.7 million 11 days before Opening Day in 2004.

In 2004 they ended up drawing 2.75 million fans.

That's 61.8% of sales. I don't know about you, but my guestimates of 55-60% is much closer to 61.8% than your 85% shot in the dark (I thought you worked there?)

One year.

BTW, the Red Sox series was in the middle of the week, right after spring break...Not surprising that it wasn't well attended and that a ton of Red Sox fans didn't come down.

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