Would someone please defend Andy MacPhail

[Orioles_Magic]

Please name the best free-agents Andy has signed since he has been here :

Free Agents signed during MacPhail's time in Baltimore

Lance Cormier

Steve Trachsel

Alex Cintron

Cesar Izturis

Mark Hendrickson

Koji Uehara

Gregg Zaun

Ty Wigginton

Adam Eaton

Mike Gonzalez

Garrett Atkins

Miguel Tejada

Will Ohman

Corey Patterson

Jeremy Accardo

Derrek Lee

Kevin Gregg

Clay Rapada

Justin Duchscherer

Vladimir Guerrero

[TonySoprano]

I hate to say it, but I truly think Angelos enjoys his solid bottom line. Why else do you hire MacPhail and watch him never sign an impact free agent? Angelos was the guy who at one time went in and outbidded the Yankees for Albert Belle. He once was a guy who wasn't going to take second to anyone. Now, I think he's happy with a good bottom line and MacPhail is the guy to bring him that.

I'm not convinced that the Yankees ever bid on Albert Belle. They let it out to their willing PR pals in the media that they were kicking the tires on Belle, but almost everyone saw that as a ploy to get Bernie Williams back to the negotiating table. G.M. Angelos blinked.

[Tony-OH]

I'm not convinced that the Yankees ever bid on Albert Belle. They let it out to their willing PR pals in the media that they were kicking the tires on Belle, but almost everyone saw that as a ploy to get Bernie Williams back to the negotiating table. G.M. Angelos blinked.

Perhaps, but Belle was one of the most expensive players in baseball (may have been the highest paid at the signing) and it showed Angelos' willingness to get the best players in order to compete. You could argue that the Tejada, Javey Lopez winter was another spending spree, but the O's only got Lopez after Rodriguez spurned them. Either way, I'm not advocating the Orioles try to sign every major free agent, but when you look at MacPhail's list of free agents signed, you can tell he had no interest in signing impact guys because they cost too much and ultimately hurt the bottom line.

[waroriole]

Perhaps, Belle was one of the most expensive players in baseball (may have been the highest paid at the signing) and it showed Angelos' willingness to get the best players in order to compete. You could argue that the Tejada, Javey Lopez winter was another spending spree, but the O's only got Lopez after Rodriguez spurned them. Either way, I'm not advocating the Orioles try to sign every major free agent, but when you look at MacPhail's list of free agents signed, you can tell he had no interest in signing impact guys because they cost too much and ultimately hurt the bottom line.

That's a bit short-sighted. You don't think that he hasn't signed the "impact guys" b/c we're not close enough to contention? What impact guys would you have had him sign, and for what price? Also, remember to include the last place team inflation rate.

[Tony-OH]

That's a bit short-sighted. You don't think that he hasn't signed the "impact guys" b/c we're not close enough to contention? What impact guys would you have had him sign, and for what price? Also, remember to include the last place team inflation rate.

At some point you have to step up and pay. You can sit around and call it what you want, but if you want to compete at some point you have to be willing to sign a guy like Holliday, Teixeira, Beltre or attempt to trade for Adrian Gonzales with the intention of signing him long term. Are they going to be expensive? Absolutely, but to contend in the AL East you have to have impact guys. MacPhail has publicly said he doesn't want to sign guys like this and his actions has proven his words correct. He prefers to find guys like Lee or Guerrero at the end of their careers or God help us all drop $4.5 million on Garrett Atkins (which should have been a fireable offense for the stupidity of that deal). His most expensive acquisitions have been Gonzales, Guerrero, and Lee. This despite the fact that 2011 was supposed to be the year in which the Orioles were going to be competitors according to MacPhail's plan.

We're four years into his plan and we're in last place, have no impact offensive players, and no one close in the minor league to help. Our biggest Dominican signing was Veloz for $300,00o, our only international signing was Koji, and our Venezualan operations are still non-existent. Our rotation is largely made up of guys already drafted or in the system before he got here (Guthrie, Britton, Arrieta, Bergesen) and although his trades have mainly been considered wins, it has not changed the fact the Orioles have been in last place since he got here and continue to stay there.

So you can say this signing or that signing would have been overpaying, perhaps they would have changed the fortunes of this organization. At the end of the day, the team is better then it was before he got here, but it's still not able to compete in the AL East. It's going to take bold leadership and vision with someone not afraid to shake things up. They can't be risk averse either. There can be no sacred cows (Roberts , Markakis) when it comes to trades that could help this team.

This organization has lost for 13 years straight. No one should feel safe and secure. The only legacy Brian Roberts and Nick Markakis have with the Orioles is one of losers. They have never been part of winning Baltimore Orioles club. That might seem harsh but its reality. The same reality that shows MacPhail is yet to build a team that can compete in the AL East and despite the fact that the Yankees and Boston are showing their age a bit, no one can rightly look at this team and say it will compete.

At the end of the day, MacPhail doesn't have the boldness or creativity to make this team a legitimate contender in the AL East. The scary part is he's had the most leeway to make moves under Angelos then probably any other GM. You can do the math to figure out the main problem.

[Sports Guy]

When has AM EVER signed an impact FA? This isn't his first go around as a GM.

[NewMarketSean]

The Rays and Giants recent success is probably the worst thing to happen to the Orioles. Now MacPhail can try to develop guys (which is fine but the system clearly can't develop them, nor can they identify players from other organizations to acquire and develop), or sign middling free agents or trade for middle of the road players like the Giants did last year and get hot behind some good pitching. Oh, and he thinks he can do this with little to no international activity and drafting the occasional "signable" player (Hobgood) over a more expensive one.

[waroriole]

At some point you have to step up and pay. You can sit around and call it what you want, but if you want to compete at some point you have to be willing to sign a guy like Holliday, Teixeira, Beltre or attempt to trade for Adrian Gonzales with the intention of signing him long term. Are they going to be expensive? Absolutely, but to contend in the AL East you have to have impact guys. MacPhail has publicly said he doesn't want to sign guys like this and his actions has proven his words correct. He prefers to find guys like Lee or Guerrero at the end of their careers or God help us all drop $4.5 million on Garrett Atkins (which should have been a fireable offense for the stupidity of that deal). His most expensive acquisitions have been Gonzales, Guerrero, and Lee. This despite the fact that 2011 was supposed to be the year in which the Orioles were going to be competitors according to MacPhail's plan.

We're four years into his plan and we're in last place, have no impact offensive players, and no one close in the minor league to help. Our biggest Dominican signing was Veloz for $300,00o, our only international signing was Koji, and our Venezualan operations are still non-existent. Our rotation is largely made up of guys already drafted or in the system before he got here (Guthrie, Britton, Arrieta, Bergesen) and although his trades have mainly been considered wins, it has not changed the fact the Orioles have been in last place since he got here and continue to stay there.

So you can say this signing or that signing would have been overpaying, perhaps they would have changed the fortunes of this organization. At the end of the day, the team is better then it was before he got here, but it's still not able to compete in the AL East. It's going to take bold leadership and vision with someone not afraid to shake things up. They can't be risk averse either. There can be no sacred cows (Roberts , Markakis) when it comes to trades that could help this team.

This organization has lost for 13 years straight. No one should feel safe and secure. The only legacy Brian Roberts and Nick Markakis have with the Orioles is one of losers. They have never been part of winning Baltimore Orioles club. That might seem harsh but its reality. The same reality that shows MacPhail is yet to build a team that can compete in the AL East and despite the fact that the Yankees and Boston are showing their age a bit, no one can rightly look at this team and say it will compete.

At the end of the day, MacPhail doesn't have the boldness or creativity to make this team a legitimate contender in the AL East. The scary part is he's had the most leeway to make moves under Angelos then probably any other GM. You can do the math to figure out the main problem.

I don't really disagree with most of what you're saying. The bolded is highlighted b/c I especially believe that, BUT that doesn't mean that we were ready to sign those guys yet. If we had signed Tex, how many years of that 8/200(at least) contract are we wasting with a team that won't compete? Why not sign the high priced guy when we are close to contention, like we could be after this year? Say we finish this year around, or a little above, .500. I could see that as the time to sign a guy like Fielder. We wouldn't be wasting his prime years, and we should be in a position to compete for the duration of his contract. That would be a much better move than trading for and signing AGon b/c we're not losing one of Britton/Matusz + more, to get the "opportunity" to sign him to roughly the same deal.

I also agree that it is frustrating. We haven't seen significant improvement in the standing since AM's arrival, and I wouldn't think about saying he's done a perfect job. However, this team is in a much better position than we were, and are actually ready to take that final step towards contention. I think it's hard to describe the abysmal shape of our franchise when AM arrived, which is most likely the reason we are still in last place. However, that last place this year is not really relevant yet. I mean, we're 4 games back of 1st place, and still haven't seen this team play its best baseball.

The loss Monday sucked, no doubt. But, don't forget this team just took 2 of 3 from the first place Rays in TB and appeared to have righted the ship. I do think these next two at NY will tell us alot about where we are headed though.

Finally, the last part of your post is the most glaring. Hopefully, Angelos is willing to shut up and stay out of it, but until that becomes more apparent it will always be the thing in the back of our minds.

[Nick The Stick]

And none of the three you speak of were going to come here.

This was @JTrea for the remark about not bringing in Tex, Beltre or Holliday.

[Tony-OH]

I don't really disagree with most of what you're saying. The bolded is highlighted b/c I especially believe that, BUT that doesn't mean that we were ready to sign those guys yt. If we had signed Tex, how many years of that 8/200(at least) contract are we wasting with a team that won't compete? Why not sign the high priced guy when we are close to contention, like we could be after this year? e Say we finish this year around, or a little above, .500. I could see that as the time to sign a guy like Fielder. We wouldn't be wasting his prime years, and we should be in a position to compete for the duration of his contract. That would be a much better move than trading for and signing AGon b/c we're not losing one of Britton/Matusz + more, to get the "opportunity" to sign him to roughly the same deal.

I also agree that it is frustrating. We haven't seen significant improvement in the standing since AM's arrival, and I wouldn't think about saying he's done a perfect job. However, this team is in a much better position than we were, and are actually ready to take that final step towards contention. I think it's hard to describe the abysmal shape of our franchise when AM arrived, which is most likely the reason we are still in last place. However, that last place this year is not really relevant yet. I mean, we're 4 games back of 1st place, and still haven't seen this team play its best baseball.

The loss Monday sucked, no doubt. But, don't forget this team just took 2 of 3 from the first place Rays in TB and appeared to have righted the ship. I do think these next two at NY will tell us alot about where we are headed though.

Finally, the last part of your post is the most glaring. Hopefully, Angelos is willing to shut up and stay out of it, but until that becomes more apparent it will always be the thing in the back of our minds.

So who is your impact free agent that we can sign this off season that will suddenly make us a contender? A lot of what you say is true, but the problem is that MapPhil's spends money on guys that are not going make a difference (Atkins, Gonzales, Gregg, Lee,) instead of investing in potential impact international prospects. If MacPhail had been investing heavily in truly building up our farm system, we would have been using $4.5 million on the international market or on above slot guys instead of on a guy like Atkins. Did anyone think Gonzales, even if he had pitched successfully was going to improve the Orioles enough to be worth $7 million and a draft pick? Why spend $5 million on Gregg or $7 million on Lee or $8 million on Vlad if he still doesn't think we will compete?

MacPhail's strength seem to be in trading, but his ability to judge the free agent market, and his willingness to spend internationally will sink him as a GM within the AL East.

[allstar1579]

So who is your impact free agent that we can sign this off season that will suddenly make us a contender? A lot of what you say is true, but the problem is that MapPhil's spends money on guys that are not going make a difference (Atkins, Gonzales, Gregg, Lee,) instead of investing in potential impact international prospects. If MacPhail had been investing heavily in truly building up our farm system, we would have been using $4.5 million on the international market or on above slot guys instead of on a guy like Atkins. Did anyone think Gonzales, even if he had pitched successfully was going to improve the Orioles enough to be worth $7 million and a draft pick? Why spend $5 million on Gregg or $7 million on Lee or $8 million on Vlad if he still doesn't think we will compete?

MacPhail's strength seem to be in trading, but his ability to judge the free agent market, and his willingness to spend internationally will sink him as a GM within the AL East.

Well said. And just for a running tally, that is $27m per year for those guys, which could have been a HECK of a contract for a big name FA, with money left over for something else. I mean, maybe it's just me, but going say $22m per year for Tex and $5m each year for international signings doesn't seem like such a bad idea when you look at what they actually spent that money on. Would be pretty nice to have Tex at first, and Sano and A. Chapman in the system.

[Wilshade]

I absolutely think that PA would pull the trigger on a contract for a guy that would bodies in the seats. The reason why he could, and did, sign guys like Raffy, Belle, Alomar, et al was because the stadium was full every night. Cal was putting bodies in the seats for him. Cal was also a draw for free agents to come to Baltimore because they wanted to play next to him.

It's a three-way nightmare right now. You gotta get bodies in the seats. But, you gotta get a winning team. But, you also gotta get a quality marquee free agent. But you need a winning team and a marquee player to put bodies in the seats. One big circle you know what.

[waroriole]

So who is your impact free agent that we can sign this off season that will suddenly make us a contender? A lot of what you say is true, but the problem is that MapPhil's spends money on guys that are not going make a difference (Atkins, Gonzales, Gregg, Lee,) instead of investing in potential impact international prospects. If MacPhail had been investing heavily in truly building up our farm system, we would have been using $4.5 million on the international market or on above slot guys instead of on a guy like Atkins. Did anyone think Gonzales, even if he had pitched successfully was going to improve the Orioles enough to be worth $7 million and a draft pick? Why spend $5 million on Gregg or $7 million on Lee or $8 million on Vlad if he still doesn't think we will compete?

MacPhail's strength seem to be in trading, but his ability to judge the free agent market, and his willingness to spend internationally will sink him as a GM within the AL East.

I think Fielder could be that guy, but I'm not going to go crazy for him.

I do agree that the lack of International FA is a HUGE problem for this team. My question is more of who is to blame for that? Angelos or AM? I'm not sure, but if it's Angelos then I hope that AM is doing everything he can to get through to him on how this needs to be done. Would I rather spend 12M or so on those guys than Gregg and Vlad this year? Absolutely, I just don't know how much of an option that was for AM.

[TonySoprano]

Perhaps, Belle was one of the most expensive players in baseball (may have been the highest paid at the signing) and it showed Angelos' willingness to get the best players in order to compete. You could argue that the Tejada, Javey Lopez winter was another spending spree, but the O's only got Lopez after Rodriguez spurned them. Either way, I'm not advocating the Orioles try to sign every major free agent, but when you look at MacPhail's list of free agents signed, you can tell he had no interest in signing impact guys because they cost too much and ultimately hurt the bottom line.

No argument with any of your points here.

[mweb]

When factoring in team situation, the timing hasn't been good to go out and sign Tex, Holliday, or Lackey. And lets not forget Lackey in this just because he's been awful.

Again, lots of hindsight going on here. Most of the board did not want Holliday for the cost. Just about no one on here thought going to 8/190 or more for Tex was a good idea before free agency that year, but then some got caught up in the moment and went from saying their max was 6-7 year 18-20M to 8-9 years at 23-25M a year. A decent amount of people wanted Lackey, although it might be hard to tell that now, but I think the majority wanted to pass. I think the vast majority of the board was very happy with Reynolds over Beltre. In fact, the vast majority of the board was quite happy with AM's moves for this season. Long-term there were more issues, but that's not exactly why people are upset here.

Who else should we mention? Maybe Figgins, Bay, Werth, Crawford, Dunn, Martinez, Burnett, and Sabathia. Anyone else?

Most of these guys we wouldn't want for what the O's would have to pay them.