SUN: O's search for relief

[Sports Guy]

Brower isn't a great example, but Dejean, Kline, and Reed were all considered solid relievers at the time we brought them in.

I really don't think there is any such thing as a solid reliever. There are elite relievers (not just closers) and suspects. Any veteran we bring in this offseason is likely to be a suspect, as there aren't any guys I would consider elite or very good available on the market - perhaps we could work out a trade for someone.

I'd rather find 3-5 minor league guys and hope one of them succeeds than sign one "solid" guy like Dejean, Kline, or Reed for $1.5M. The minor league guys have just as good of a chance of being a successful reliever as the "solid" guys do.

They were solid guys Mackus but they were also guys with bad trends like declining K rate, HR rate or command rate.

[Cokeman]

Sign Scott Williamson. Trade for Wuertz or Valverde.

Sign Rhodes.

Fill in with Hoey, Britton and Ray.

7th guy comes out of Birkins/Abreu/non roster invitee/Parrish(if healthy...he would be the preference).

Now that is a power BP.

I like that, except for Rhodes. Even if healthy, I'm not sure how much rust Parrish is going to have on him...worth a shot, but definitely wouldn't depend too much on him.

[Sports Guy]

I like that, except for Rhodes. Even if healthy, I'm not sure how much rust Parrish is going to have on him...worth a shot, but definitely wouldn't depend too much on him.

What is wrong with Rhodes? High K rate, hasn't given up a homer. His ERA isn't that pretty but if you look at his splits, it seems like he has not pitched well in the new Philly park, which is a great hitters park.

As for Parrish, probably right on him. Heck, will they even offer him arbitration?

[bigbird]

What is wrong with Rhodes? High K rate, hasn't given up a homer. His ERA isn't that pretty but if you look at his splits, it seems like he has not pitched well in the new Philly park, which is a great hitters park.

As for Parrish, probably right on him. Heck, will they even offer him arbitration?

His WHIP is 1.71 and that pretty much sucks for a reliever.

[mweb]

They were solid guys Mackus but they were also guys with bad trends like declining K rate, HR rate or command rate.

And age, Reed was about 40, DeJean about 35.

[Sports Guy]

His WHIP is 1.71 and that pretty much sucks for a reliever.

His walks are not great this year but generally speaking, he has always had very good control. He is pitching in the NL for the first time in his career this year so that could have something to do with it.

I think he will be fine with the walks...Not looking at his hits as there can be alot of luck there. He is averaging 9.5 k's per 9 IP and has given up 1 homer all year. Those are the stats that matter, along with his walks.

He has 2 out of the 3 you want and is usually a very good control pitcher, so i will take my chances with the walks that he can get them to his normal level and even if he can't, he is still the type of pitcher that can get out of jams because he strikes so many guys out and he doesn't give up homers.

[oriole_way]

"Kerry Ligtenberg in 2003. Mike DeJean in 2004. Steve Reed and Steve Kline in 2005. Jim Brower in 2006."

Good article, it is a crap shoot in alot of ways. Like Flanny says your allmost better off signing a guy coming off a bad year. If Kline wasnt such an Idiot i think he would of bounced back this year for us. But look at the MFY's with there solid BP....Proctor, Myers , Villone, Fanrsworth, i think anyone of those guys were available this off season. Are the Yanks lucky or just better at scouting?

Proctor throws between 95-99 mph. 2006 Salary - 0.352 million

Farnsworth also throws in the upper 90s. 2006 Salary - 5.4 million

Tanyon Sturtze throws in the mid to low 90s. 2006 Salary - 1.5 million (got injured)

Dotel throws hard. 2006 Salary - 2 million. (recently made season debut)

Brian Bruney was recently called up. He throws in the mid 90s. 2006 salary - 0.322 million (Arizona had released him earlier in the year)

Then you have that Mariano Rivera fellow, who also throws around 94 mph. 2006 salary - 10.5 million

Not all of these guys worked out (whether it's due to injury or poor control etc) but the point is that the Yankees have multiple guys who can bring the heat.

Now compare with the Orioles. Chris Ray can bring it. Hawkins can sometimes touch 94-95. That's it. The guys that the Orioles usually bring in (Dejean, Reed, Kline, Brower) are usually soft tossers in comparison.

The fact that we are eagerly anticipating Jim Hoey (count me as one of these people) next year illustrates how few power arms we have in our bullpen. Let's assume that Hoey is on the team next year and is relatively successful (which is obviously best case scenario), then we still only have 2 power arms in the bullpen, unless we sign someone.

Is the discrepancy due to payroll limitations? Maybe (the Yankees could afford to take a flier on someone like Dotel, who they knew wouldn't be able to pitch anytime soon when they signed him), but somehow, either by stocking/developing more minor league talent or paying for it in free agency, we need more power arms.

This is a tired subject but it's still relevant to bring it up. Imagine if BJ Ryan were still on the team. Sure we would have had to overpay to keep him but imagine if we had Hoey (cheap), Ray (cheap), and Ryan (expensive) in the bullpen next year. Sprinkle in a Britton (cheap), a Birkins (cheap) and another lefty, and this could be a top notch bullpen.

[Cokeman]

What is wrong with Rhodes? High K rate, hasn't given up a homer. His ERA isn't that pretty but if you look at his splits, it seems like he has not pitched well in the new Philly park, which is a great hitters park.

As for Parrish, probably right on him. Heck, will they even offer him arbitration?

Mostly age...he will be 37 in October, so he will be pushing 38 by the end of next season. When does his power start dropping off?

[mweb]

What is wrong with Rhodes? High K rate, hasn't given up a homer. His ERA isn't that pretty but if you look at his splits, it seems like he has not pitched well in the new Philly park, which is a great hitters park.

As for Parrish, probably right on him. Heck, will they even offer him arbitration?

I believe he had given up a hr, but obviously only 1 is quite good. However that kind of goes against the splits aspect of your argument, you would think if he was affected by his home park so much that he would have given up more hr's there.

Anyway, Rhodes issue this year seems to be his control, 5.2 walks/9 is quite bad. However, his FIP ERA is a very solid 3.03, so that's a good sign. I wouldn't mind seeing Rhodes in our pen next year.

[bigbird]

Proctor throws between 95-99 mph. 2006 Salary - 0.352 million

Farnsworth also throws in the upper 90s. 2006 Salary - 5.4 million

Tanyon Sturtze throws in the mid to low 90s. 2006 Salary - 1.5 million (got injured)

Dotel throws hard. 2006 Salary - 2 million. (recently made season debut)

Brian Bruney was recently called up. He throws in the mid 90s. 2006 salary - 0.322 million (Arizona had released him earlier in the year)

Then you have that Mariano Rivera fellow, who also throws around 94 mph. 2006 salary - 10.5 million

Not all of these guys worked out (whether it's due to injury or poor control etc) but the point is that the Yankees have multiple guys who can bring the heat.

Now compare with the Orioles. Chris Ray can bring it. Hawkins can sometimes touch 94-95. That's it. The guys that the Orioles usually bring in (Dejean, Reed, Kline, Brower) are usually soft tossers in comparison.

The fact that we are eagerly anticipating Jim Hoey (count me as one of these people) next year illustrates how few power arms we have in our bullpen. Let's assume that Hoey is on the team next year and is relatively successful (which is obviously best case scenario), then we still only have 2 power arms in the bullpen, unless we sign someone.

Is the discrepancy due to payroll limitations? Maybe (the Yankees could afford to take a flier on someone like Dotel, who they knew wouldn't be able to pitch anytime soon when they signed him), but somehow, either by stocking/developing more minor league talent or paying for it in free agency, we need more power arms.

This is a tired subject but it's still relevant to bring it up. Imagine if BJ Ryan were still on the team. Sure we would have had to overpay to keep him but imagine if we had Hoey (cheap), Ray (cheap), and Ryan (expensive) in the bullpen next year. Sprinkle in a Britton (cheap), a Birkins (cheap) and another lefty, and this could be a top notch bullpen.

Interesting you left off Meyers and Villone, 2 of their better relievers.

[Sports Guy]

Mostly age...he will be 37 in October, so he will be pushing 38 by the end of next season. When does his power start dropping off?

It would just be for one year(with an option). If he had big signs of declining, i would be worried about it but he really doesn't and he is not throwing a ton of innings either.

I usually like younger players but you can have some older vets sprinkled in there. Plus, with all the youth we will hopefully have in the pen next year, a vet for them to lean on is a good thing, as long as the vet is effective and when he is signed is not showing signs of decline, which Rhodes is not.

And remember, Rhodes said he wants to retire here. He wants to come back and be an Oriole.

[Three Run Homer]

I'm not a big fan of signing Rhodes, but I think it would be a mistake to write off all veteran relievers just because we've signed a bunch of duds. Kerry Ligtenberg, Jim Brower and Mike DeJean were all suspect at the time we signed them--we shouldn't have put any faith in them. Steve Reed had a good track record but he was already 40 and had pitched poorly down the stretch the previous season...again, we should have seen it coming.

Steve Kline is the only guy we've signed in recent years who we really should have expected to be good, but wasn't.

Looking farther back, Lee Smith and Randy Myers were both signed as free agents and did just fine as Orioles. Mike Timlin was a washout as a closer, but if we had been a little more patient with him and put him in a more appropriate role, we could have had an outstanding setup man for the last few seasons. Buddy Groom was signed as a veteran free agent and exceeded all expectations.

Of course we should save plenty of space for our home grown relievers, but I just don't think we have enough young talent in the system yet to stock an entire bullpen next season. We need to spend the money to get the one or two veteran relievers out there this winter who actually deserve it...and no more "proven" journeymen like Williams or Byrdak, or has-beens like Ortiz or Hawkins.

[AZRon]

Which is exactly why we should trade him now. Get a young, underachieving, hard-throwing arm for him now. Some guy in high A or AA ball who's got tools, but maybe lacks command.

What do we have to lose?

This guy seems to fit your requirements.

Brian Bruney

Arizona released him this year on 5/24.

The Yankees signed him to a minor league contract on 7/10.

Struck out the side in his one inning against the O's.

[Cokeman]

It would just be for one year(with an option). If he had big signs of declining, i would be worried about it but he really doesn't and he is not throwing a ton of innings either.

I usually like younger players but you can have some older vets sprinkled in there. Plus, with all the youth we will hopefully have in the pen next year, a vet for them to lean on is a good thing, as long as the vet is effective and when he is signed is not showing signs of decline, which Rhodes is not.

And remember, Rhodes said he wants to retire here. He wants to come back and be an Oriole.

I see your point, and when all is said and done, signing Rhodes wouldn't be the end of the world, but, I would just prefer to sign/trade for someone younger if possible. I'm just tired of bringing in older relievers and seeing them fall on their face.

[Sports Guy]

I see your point, and when all is said and done, signing Rhodes wouldn't be the end of the world, but, I would just prefer to sign/trade for someone younger if possible. I'm just tired of bringing in older relievers and seeing them fall on their face.

As am I but i wouldn't blame the Orioles for this one. Rhodes isn't showing consistent bad trends, where the other guys they brought in did. So, the signs are not there of him falling on his face. Doesn't mean it can't happen of course but as long as his velocity is still there(which i would guess it is), he seems to be a low risk signing IMO.