Shouldn't the changes in pitcher usage weaken the argument against the DH?

[Frobby]

I was thinking about this as Mike & Mike were discussing the DH rule this morning. One of the supposed advantages of not having the DH is that it increases the amount of strategy in the game. It seems to me that this was much more true in the mid-1970's when the DH rule was created, compared to today. In those days, starting pitchers frequently pitched complete games, or at least when 7-8 innings with great frequency. And, teams carried fewer relief pitchers. So, if your starter was pitching well in the 7th or 8th inning and his turn to bat came up in a close game, there was a tricky decision to make about whether to leave him in or pinch hit. But nowadays, most starters are running out of gas by the 6th inning anyway, even when they are pitching well, and there are a ton of relievers who rarely pitch more than an inning. So, the number of times where there is a difficult choice to make about whether to pinch hit for the pitcher is greatly reduced -- I would say that the number of times that the decision is actually difficult has probably been reduced by 60-70% due to the way pitchers are used today.

Meanwhile, you can be pretty sure that the starter isn't going to be pulled for a pinch hitter in his first two at bats no matter what is happening in the game, and those two at bats kill a ton of rallies.

[Sports Guy]

Yea, everyone acts like there is so much more strategy in NL baseball..such a crock of poop.

[DrungoHazewood]

If the argument against the DH boiled down to "it makes it so much harder to decide whether to pinch hit for the starter" I think the debate would have been over years ago.

I've always liked Bill James' argument that the DH could increase strategy, because most of the moves in a non-DH game, aside from the one in the previous sentence, are forced. You have a .088 hitter coming up to bat, you're down 5-0 in the 6th. Of course you pinch hit, and of course you double switch so the next time around you can delay having a freakin' .057 hitter up you're again forced to pinch hit for.

At least in a DH league you can do baseball things with the DH's slot. You can platoon. You can bunt. You can hit-and-run. You have to decide whether your star RFer with a bum ankle can at least get his bat in the lineup by DHing, or whether you're better off resting him. With the DH you're never forced into that rec league church softball situation of "well, the 12-year-old girl is up, let's try to minimize the damage."

[flashjordnk]

You have a .088 hitter coming up to bat, you're down 5-0 in the 6th.

This just seems generally the reason why i don't like the pitcher hitting. If teams actually let them work on their hitting fine. But a lot of these guys aren't even allowed to work on hitting since they are asked to require their craft as pitchers.

The cost of a pitcher getting hurt due to hitting is so large to teams now. Why have hitters who are worse than some GCL batters have to hit on a regular basis?

[DrungoHazewood]

This just seems generally the reason why i don't like the pitcher hitting. If teams actually let them work on their hitting fine. But a lot of these guys aren't even allowed to work on hitting since they are asked to require their craft as pitchers.

For the large majority of pitchers I don't think working on their hitting would do much good. In order to become good pitchers they've worked on pitching much of their lives, usually to the detriment of their hitting. And they're selected based solely on their pitching. Their hitting ability is so minor as to be completely irrelevant.

Basically, in order to be a major league quality pitcher in today's game you almost have to give up any serious hitting instruction and practice. And most pitchers couldn't be anything like major league batters if they completely gave up practicing pitching to devote more time to hitting. Pitchers hitting have gotten worse, relative to the rest of the league, from day one of major league baseball. That's not because the pitchers don't try, it's because the league has gotten a lot better.

[flashjordnk]

For the large majority of pitchers I don't think working on their hitting would do much good. In order to become good pitchers they've worked on pitching much of their lives, usually to the detriment of their hitting. And they're selected based solely on their pitching. Their hitting ability is so minor as to be completely irrelevant.

Basically, in order to be a major league quality pitcher in today's game you almost have to give up any serious hitting instruction and practice. And most pitchers couldn't be anything like major league batters if they completely gave up practicing pitching to devote more time to hitting. Pitchers hitting have gotten worse, relative to the rest of the league, from day one of major league baseball. That's not because the pitchers don't try, it's because the league has gotten a lot better.

Right, I wasn't trying to imply that they don't WANT to be good hitters. I totally agree with your analysis.

My larger point is that if we accept this as part of what the game has become, why make 1/9 at bats less entertaining for fans? If pitching has evolved this much, it certainly is a good reason for the DH to exist.

[DrungoHazewood]

Right, I wasn't trying to imply that they don't WANT to be good hitters. I totally agree with your analysis.

My larger point is that if we accept this as part of what the game has become, why make 1/9 at bats less entertaining for fans? If pitching has evolved this much, it certainly is a good reason for the DH to exist.

Right. I've argued in the past that pitchers hitting was perfectly fine in the early days when they were almost as good as shortstops or catchers. The average OPS of a shortstop used to be 90% of league average, and pitchers were at 85%. In the 1880s pitchers would still occasionally lead the league in batting average or some other hitting category.

But today they're at 35% or 40% of league, and it's hard to go much lower than that. Pitchers are pretty near the theoretical minimum OPS - just standing there and never swinging you'd walk like 2-3% of the time, and even a decent high school hitter could hit .075 in the majors. That's not major league baseball, that's stubbornness.

[Frobby]

Here is what I hate about NL baseball more than anything else. It's the second inning, and you get a little 2 out rally going. The no. 8 hitter comes up -- and they walk him to get to the pitcher, who flails at three pitches and the inning is over.

It's bad enough that you have to watch the pitcher bat when his natural turn at bat comes up in the middle of a rally. But when they are walking guys to get the pitcher to the plate -- that is just the worst! And it happens a lot.