Adam Jones is amongst the worst defensive outfielders this year

[Enjoy Terror]

http://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=of&stats=fld&lg=all&qual=y&type=1&season=2011&month=0&season1=2011&ind=0

I hadn't ever really noticed him being all that terrible, but if you buy into UZR or DRS, it's all right there in ones and zeroes.

It is comforting to know that Matt Wieters is the best defensive catcher in baseball by a city mile though.

[MrOrange82]

http://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=of&stats=fld&lg=all&qual=y&type=1&season=2011&month=0&season1=2011&ind=0

I hadn't ever really noticed him being all that terrible, but if you buy into UZR or DRS, it's all right there in ones and zeroes.

It is comforting to know that Matt Wieters is the best defensive catcher in baseball by a city mile though.

I'll believe my eyes.

[CA-ORIOLE]

http://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=of&stats=fld&lg=all&qual=y&type=1&season=2011&month=0&season1=2011&ind=0

I hadn't ever really noticed him being all that terrible, but if you buy into UZR or DRS, it's all right there in ones and zeroes.

Balls getting over Jone's head has been an ongoing issue. I don't have access to Bill James' Fielding Bible this year, but it broke down the issue pretty clearly in the past. Observationally, I'd guess it's the same issue this year. I'm sure somebody on on here has a Bill James account and can provide some more insight.

[maybenxtyr]

http://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=of&stats=fld&lg=all&qual=y&type=1&season=2011&month=0&season1=2011&ind=0

I hadn't ever really noticed him being all that terrible, but if you buy into UZR or DRS, it's all right there in ones and zeroes.

It is comforting to know that Matt Wieters is the best defensive catcher in baseball by a city mile though.

Some people on here really stand by these numbers, but I just do not understand all of them. I can understand some of the trade Jones threads, but not because of his defense.

I am not saying that is what you are implying either, just an observation.

[CA-ORIOLE]

Some people on here really stand by these numbers, but I just do not understand all of them. I can understand some of the trade Jones threads, but not because of his defense.

I am not saying that is what you are implying either, just an observation.

Accuracy of fielding systems noted, but when mutliple objective systems show something over several years it gets kinda hard to rationalize that they are all consistently wrong. Subjectively, I see what the systems see. Too many balls getting over his head. If you need more than that, his outfield coach (Shelby) has called him out on this in the past. Questions about his defense (among other issues) are integral to the issue of trading him.

[maybenxtyr]

Accuracy of fielding systems noted, but when mutliple objective systems show something over several years it gets kinda hard to ratinonalize that they are all consistently wrong. Subjectively, I see what the systems see. Too many balls getting over his head. If you need more that that, his outfield coach (Shelby) has called him out on this in the past.

I am not trying to dispute the stats. I just do not think he is a defensive liability. Atleast not to a point that they need to trade him. Trade him sure, but only if a fair deal is out there.

I also do not think Pie would be a suitable replacment. So any trades that the team makes would need to bring in a CF.

[CA-ORIOLE]

I am not trying to dispute the stats. I just do not think he is a defensive liability. Atleast not to a point that they need to trade him. Trade him sure, but only if a fair deal is out there

I don't know about liability, but the indications are he's below average. He also appears to have flaws offensively (discipline/obp skills). That doesn't mean he's not a good player. The issue about trading him is that other GM's might give more value than what he's actually worth and overvalue him. Nobody is talking about giving him away.

So any trades that the team makes would need to bring in a CF

Other trades or FA could net a CF. Doesn't have to be the Jones deal.

[SilentJames]

I was surprised to see that Jones has 5 errors this year. I honestly can't remember him having that many. But those 5 errors must be wreaking havoc on those numbers. There is just no way you can look at Jones and call him one of the worst in baseball. Just no way.

[OFFNY]

I was surprised to see that Jones has 5 errors this year. I honestly can't remember him having that many. But those 5 errors must be wreaking havoc on those numbers. There is just no way you can look at Jones and call him one of the worst in baseball. Just no way.

As an Oriole fan, if an opposing player hits the ball over his head, I never think to myself, "Oh, no. Adam Jones is our center fielder. No way is that ball going to be caught."

[CA-ORIOLE]

I was surprised to see that Jones has 5 errors this year. I honestly can't remember him having that many. But those 5 errors must be wreaking havoc on those numbers. There is just no way you can look at Jones and call him one of the worst in baseball. Just no way.

According to this years UZR, the five errors are worth a -1.0 and the range is worth a -10.0. The errors mean very little. I'ts important to note he's compared to other centerfielders, not all outfielders.

[CA-ORIOLE]

"

Oh, no. Adam Jones is our center fielder. No way is that ball going to be caught.

Maybe not, but figuring the last 2.5 years and as a rough approximation, he's not getting to about 25 balls per year that an "average" centerfielder would get too. His only positive attribute is his arm. His trends are amazingly consistent.

[SilentJames]

According to this years UZR, the five errors are worth a -1.0 and the range is worth a -10.0. The errors mean very little. I'ts important to note he's compared to other centerfielders, not all outfielders.

But here is what I don't get. His OOZ rating is 44 - middle of the ground. One would assume that is his RZR is second worst in the league that he would be near the bottom in OOZ as well.

No one has ever been able to explain to me what exactly an outfielder's ZONE is. Moreover, all of these numbers are based on "what an average fielder should be able to get to" who determines that?

I have never gotten this about OF defensive metrics, they seem to be based on very spurious observations.

[skanar]

My biggest complaint about defensive metrics (specifically and especially UZR) is that I can't watch or walk through a game, see the plays, and understand how a player's performance in that game increased or decreased his metric. It makes it very hard to tell just what is being evaluated.

Edit: I can sort of do this for the +/- system, which leads me to prefer that. But there are still plenty of other reservations.

[SilentJames]

My biggest complaint about defensive metrics (specifically and especially UZR) is that I can't watch or walk through a game, see the plays, and understand how a player's performance in that game increased or decreased his metric. It makes it very hard to tell just what is being evaluated.

Edit: I can sort of do this for the +/- system, which leads me to prefer that. But there are still plenty of other reservations.

When is a ball "something the average player could have gotten to" rather than, a double? Who makes that distinction and how is it made?

[TradeAngelos]

http://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=of&stats=fld&lg=all&qual=y&type=1&season=2011&month=0&season1=2011&ind=0

I hadn't ever really noticed him being all that terrible

That is because he isn't terrible, and those "metrics" are hogwash.

BTW would the board be happy if he played on the warning track? Would that be deep enough? Then you can all talk about those balls that landed in front of him and how he was playing too deep.