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we don't have enough organizational depth to make this a valid point. We only go one-quality deep at almost all positions. So trading - say - Nick Markakis for a quality SP prospect or two shores up one hole but creates another. We don't have the luxury to plug players in with the possible exception of a Reimold/Scott thing. I don't see how we can trade Guthrie right now.

What is easier and cheaper to replace? A good SP or a good OF?

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we don't have enough organizational depth to make this a valid point. We only go one-quality deep at almost all positions. So trading - say - Nick Markakis for a quality SP prospect or two shores up one hole but creates another. We don't have the luxury to plug players in with the possible exception of a Reimold/Scott thing. I don't see how we can trade Guthrie right now.

So, your argument is that we don't have depth, so we shouldn't acquire it? Is that supposed to be taken seriously?

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So, your argument is that we don't have depth, so we shouldn't acquire it? Is that supposed to be taken seriously?

Yes. We don't have the pieces to trade. My opinion, but trading a guy like Markakis or Jones or Guthrie does nothing except shift a hole from one position to another. Those guys aren't the issues. It's financial mismanagement with signings like Lee, Vlad, Gregg, Gonzalez and so on. You take the money being spent on those guys and invest in international scouting and you'd have something.

I say dump the crap out of those guys. Get their salaries off the books. Take back what you can get but the real value is the cash. Then call it a day. You don't get better by trading all of your good players. If we had any positional depth I would get it, but yeah I don't necessarily think we have the pieces to build depth. Are we any better off with Josh Bell and Steve Johnson than we were with George Sherill, for example? Even Bedard, are we really better off with Jones and Tillman (and throw in Bell and Johnson) than we would be with Bedard? And those were both quality trades.

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I have to say that, although I understand the business case for trading Nick, it would bum me out if we did so. I've followed the guy's career since the day we drafted him, and he's been one of the few prospects we've had who actually became a good major leaguer. So, if he is traded, I will understand why, but I'll be unhappy on an emotional level.

For me, in the 45 years I've been following the team, there were 4 players I really latched onto -- Frank Robinson, Eddie Murray, Mike Mussina and Nick Markakis. I don't mean that there weren't many other players I liked -- I mean these guys were the ones whose names I looked for first in the box score. And in the case of Frank, Eddie and Moose, my interest in them continued even in the years after they left the Orioles and I always lamented their departures, far above all others. And even though Nick isn't as good a player as the other three, that's the status he holds for me. I will always be a huge Nick Markakis fan, no matter where he plays.

Do we really just root for laundry?

Surprised that Cal was not on your list.

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Good point, hadn't thought about this side of it. If they truly want to be spending less than $90 million I think we are in deep [stuff], since it's obvious they also don't want to trade any of these "fan favorites."

Who said they are going to spend no more than $90 million??

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We don't have the pieces to trade. My opinion, but trading a guy like Markakis or Jones or Guthrie does nothing except shift a hole from one position to another
Not neccasarily..You don't know what we get in trades for these guys...And sure, maybe we don't get a CFer back but if we can fill a starting pitcher and first base hole with Jones than we are better off.
Those guys aren't the issues
But are they the solutions?
It's financial mismanagement with signings like Lee, Vlad, Gregg, Gonzalez and so on. You take the money being spent on those guys and invest in international scouting and you'd have something.
Ok but this isn't happening. We all agree that they should be spending more on that stuff but its not happening.

I

say dump the crap out of those guys. Get their salaries off the books.
Agreed but you aren't getting a lot back.
Are we any better off with Josh Bell and Steve Johnson than we were with George Sherill, for example?
Bell and Johnson.
Even Bedard, are we really better off with Jones and Tillman (and throw in Bell and Johnson) than we would be with Bedard?
Obviously yes.
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Who said they are going to spend no more than $90 million??

They may eventually, if they start winning and selling tickets...But their payroll isn't quite 90 million this year and they are saying how far above it is from where they want it to be.

Use some common sense here...Don't go with hopes and dreams and what you think they should spend. Go with what has been spent for the last 12-15 years. Look at where they normally are...pay attention to who the owner is, etc...

What does common sense tell you about the payroll in the forseeable future?

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.....if all you do is extend and keep the same players that have been apart of bad teams?

If we basically go into the offseason with the same team we have now, just with a lot of money spent and more holes, how do those of you who want to keep a lot of the players we have, expect us to get better?

I'm all for tearing it down again. I've averaged an attendance of 30 home games per season since I moved here 3 years ago. My parents watch 162 per year from home in western VA and have been doing that since I was born. I'm tired of this, I can't find the silver lining anymore. So here is what I would like to see happen:

* Trade Hardy for Alonso

* Trade Reynolds for Bryan Morris or Rudy Owens from Pittsburgh

* Hold onto Derek Lee until the deadline.. I think he is starting to heat up - then trade him for whatever you can get.

* Guthrie is a tough call for me - I would trade him if the price is right. However, I think he will flip his record (12-3) with a competitive team in the NL. Honestly, if the Yankees would do it.. I would take Jesus Montero for Guthrie. I know it is in your division but the only reason we would have a shot is because Montero isn't playing well this year. Before the season they would have laughed at this (and still may).

* Bring in new blood to the GM office - Kim Ng might be a good fit. If not her than someone within the brain tree of Texas or Tampa. Is there a Jon Daniels protege in Texas that we can get?

* Offer the minor league instructors (especially the pitching coaches) from Toronto and Tampa 2x the money they are making now. We need people to develop these young pitchers. The guys we have obviously are not getting it done. Brian Matusz should be able to hold a runner on base by the time he reaches the big leagues

* Double the efforts in the Dominican and triple the minimal efforts that are going on in Venezuela

* Sign Dylan Bundy - the fan base should protest outside of Camden Yards if this doesn't happen

* Sign Nick Delmonico (6th rd pick) overslot - sign any other overslot guys that we have - if the draft and international money takes from our pool and we don't have enough to sign Prince next year - so be it. We aren't going to be good for awhile.

* Reduce ticket prices for attendees that can show valid ID from Maryland, VA, and PA (not sure if this is legal lol.. but it should be done)

* sell the naming rights to OPACY to Under Armour... UAPACY isn't that bad (put the money into the draft and international efforts)

If things don't change.. lets get a ton of people together and protest outside the gates at OPACY or hopefully UAPACY.

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we don't have enough organizational depth to make this a valid point. We only go one-quality deep at almost all positions. So trading - say - Nick Markakis for a quality SP prospect or two shores up one hole but creates another. We don't have the luxury to plug players in with the possible exception of a Reimold/Scott thing. I don't see how we can trade Guthrie right now.

Umm, we're going to lose 90+ games with or without Guthrie so why not trade him if there's a market for him (i.e Alonso and Cozart) and start putting some younger pieces in place for 2012 and beyond. If Hardy isn't extended, the same would apply for him IMO.

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They may eventually, if they start winning and selling tickets...But their payroll isn't quite 90 million this year and they are saying how far above it is from where they want it to be.

Use some common sense here...Don't go with hopes and dreams and what you think they should spend. Go with what has been spent for the last 12-15 years. Look at where they normally are...pay attention to who the owner is, etc...

What does common sense tell you about the payroll in the forseeable future?

That there's not a snowballs chance in hell this team is making a competitive bid for Fielder,Reyes,or Darvish.

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I totally agree with you, especially if BMat is healthy when they replay it.

But that still doesn't address the long term issues either.

Yeah, I didn't say that as some kind of justification for standing pat. We absolutely need to continue to make forward progress this offseason.

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You have to make trades and trade the untradeables. (new word!) But what do you deem fair and what Mcphail deems fair is on opposite plains. Mcphail in trades and contracts tries to squeeze out every dime imo. If they are not doing well he does not look to get rid of him because he could be worth more latter on. That so called player never regains form and he ends up getting nothing. He does not feel pressure to make the team better now and he should imo. He does not go for best value now but best value overall. Who knows who is right.

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...

1) Cozart isn't nearly enough to justify trading Guthrie.

Agreed. Cozart has a .753 career OPS in five minor league seasons. He's having his best year at the plate while repeating Triple A as a 25-year old (.825 OPS). Solid glove + mediocre bat= preferably not.

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The argument is, many people want to keep around most of this team...how do you expect this team to get a lot better if all you are doing is keeping the same players?

Yes. IF the "cavalry" turns it around and overcomes the setbacks of this year and live up to their potential, I think a nucleus of Wieters/Hardy/Reynolds/Jones/Markakis (and Roberts if healthy) can be part of a winning team going forward.

If Matusz/Britton/Arrietta/Tillman are all Penn/Cabrera/Loewen/Ponson level busts, then I see no hope whatsoever for us to contend in the next four of five years. Period. No matter how many trades you make or deck chairs you choose to rearrange.

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