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If Jim Thome is a no doubt Hall of Famer...

crissfan172

By crissfan172
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crissfan172 Hangout Grand Counsel

crissfan172

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...how is Edgar Martinez not?

I know the first thing that always comes out of the critics' mouths is, "He's a DH." Well...Jim Thome hurt his teams with his defense (-3.8 dWAR), while, in limited time, Edgar actually helped his team with his defense (0.3 dWAR).

Now...obviously his dWAR is barely positive because he was a DH for so long, but why should he be punished for not playing defense when hitters like Thome are rewarded for playing bad defense?

Their OPS+ is identical (147).

Their oWAR's are very similar:

Martinez: 66.9 in 8,672 PA's (7.71 per 1000 PA's).

Thome: 74.6 in 10,012 PA's (7.45 per 1000 PA's).

I guess at the end of the day, the voters could refute this argument by pointing to Thome's 598 homers compared to Martinez's 309, but I guess I just don't value counting stats (homers, RBI's, runs, etc.) the same way that the voters do. The complete package, IMO, is more important than excelling in one statistic more than another.

Just my two cents...

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russ snyder Major Leaguer Cup of Coffee

russ snyder

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I agree. The guy was an outstanding hitter. Lifetime .312 is outstanding. I came away very impressed after looking up his stats on Baseball Reference. Martinez was a professional hitter. Like Thome, the knock on him was his lack of defense. However, DH is a viable position in baseball. IMO, Martinez was the best DH in baseball from 1995 to 2003. I'm not a huge HOF guy, but I think that Martinez deserves the honor as much as Thome.

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sangar All-Star

sangar

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I think they're both Hall of Famers, but the 600 home run club is an automatic in so far as the voters, and me, are concerned.
Yep, there are certain milestones that automatically garner respect and 600 home runs is one of them.

I'll add that while Thome's dWAR is negative he still played a position. He was a ballplayer, not a ballhitter. However; Edgar also belongs in the hall, IMO.

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BaltimoreTerp Hangout Grand Counsel

BaltimoreTerp

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Yep, there are certain milestones that automatically garner respect and 600 home runs is one of them.

I'll add that while Thome's dWAR is negative he still played a position. He was a ballplayer, not a ballhitter. However; Edgar also belongs in the hall, IMO.

I think that argument about "hitter" versus "player" is like saying a legendary pitcher shouldn't go in because they were a poor fielder and an embarrassment at the plate. Or that a dominant reliever can't go in because they weren't successful as a starter.

If you provide that much production to help your club, why does it matter that they did it while NOT costing their team runs on defense?

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DrungoHazewood Hangout Grand Counsel

DrungoHazewood

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What reason is that?

Yea, I'm curious about that, too. IMO, Baines isn't a Hall of Famer because he had zero defense and baserunning value, but only had a 120 OPS+. He was only a tiny bit better as a hitter than Nick Markakis, but played the field rarely or never from his mid-20s on. That's reflected in his 37 WAR, which is actually worse than Jim Rice, and Rice is one of the weaker HOFers.

Thome had a 147 OPS+. His resume is the same as Baines, except that he was a dramatically better hitter. Edgar also had a 147 OPS+, and was handicapped by the stupidity of the mid-80s Mariners who kept him in AAA Calgary for several years while he put up .900+ OPSes and they played Jim Presley and his anemic bat at third. Thome and Edgar are roughly equal, and both far superior to Baines.

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