Wieters' blast tonight

[UnashamedRiver]

4 of the last 6 seasons, McCann has had a WAR of 4 or higher and one of those years is this year...and its 3.8...so he will likely go over 4 again.

So, McCann's "lack of defense" still makes him a player worth around 20M a season.

Again, you are wrong.

And if all we got 6 elite hitting years from Wieters and he had to move to first base, so be it. Not sure why you are using Mauer here..He hurts your cause, not help it.

You don't draft a guy and expect him to become a top 1-2 player at his position. No matter the hype. I don't expect Bundy to eventually win a cy young. In other words I don't expect him to eventually become the best pitcher in the AL. Same with Wieters, I don't expect him to become the best catcher in the AL even though he's already awfully close.

[mweb]

McCann and Wieters have the same rWAR this year.

[Hallas]

First of all, Ozzie did that for a career, not one season, so let's not put Wieters at that level quite yet. You are ready to call him one of the greatest fielders ever, for any position?

Secondly, if all Manny Machado ends up being is the equivalent to what Wieters is now, a 730ish OPS, upper echelon fielder than yes, I would be disappointed.

First of all, without offensive context, it's hard to say, but if Machado puts up a .730ish OPS in an offensive environment such as 2011, combined it with top-flight defense, and he did that for 15 years, then I think I'd be pretty damn happy with that. That's a 40-45 win player right there. Better than Mark Belanger, comparable to Omar Vizquel, and probably just a couple hot seasons short of HOF credentials. Regarding Wieters, we had a catcher named Rick Dempsey who manned the catcher position for 12 or so years. Wieters is every bit the defensive catcher that Dempsey was (at least at this point in time) and he is a far better hitter.

[Frobby]

You don't draft a guy and expect him to become a top 1-2 player at his position. No matter the hype. I don't expect Bundy to eventually win a cy young. In other words I don't expect him to eventually become the best pitcher in the AL. Same with Wieters, I don't expect him to become the best catcher in the AL even though he's already awfully close.

I think SG's point is, somebody has to be that guy for the Orioles. No, you can never "expect" any particular prospect to do it, but winning teams need a few players who aren't just good, but great. Who is going to be that guy if it isn't Wieters? If this team can't home grow at least one true star player (perennial all-star and MOO bat), it's never going to buy and trade its way to contention. Same for the pitchers -- somebody has to turn out to be an ace, or we're going nowhere.

These things do happen, all the time. There are superstars in baseball, and someone has to draft them. You'd think that once or twice in 20 years, it would be us. Mike Mussina is the last guy we drafted who arguably fits that description.

[UnashamedRiver]

I think SG's point is, somebody has to be that guy for the Orioles. No, you can never "expect" any particular prospect to do it, but winning teams need a few players who aren't just good, but great. Who is going to be that guy if it isn't Wieters? If this team can't home grow at least one true star player (perennial all-star and MOO bat), it's never going to buy and trade its way to contention. Same for the pitchers -- somebody has to turn out to be an ace, or we're going nowhere.

These things do happen, all the time. There are superstars in baseball, and someone has to draft them. You'd think that once or twice in 20 years, it would be us. Mike Mussina is the last guy we drafted who arguably fits that description.

true. Mussina was the last great Oriole.

[SerenityNow]

We understand...we just don't care.

He was drafted to be a franchise, cornerstone player...He isn't even remotely close to that.

So was Billy Rowell and hundreds of other first rounders over the years across the majors. Calm down.

[OFFNY]

.

Nolan Reimold read this thread, got a little jealous, and decided to hit a moonshot of his own tonight.

[Sports Guy]

So was Billy Rowell and hundreds of other first rounders over the years across the majors. Calm down.

Is this supposed to add something to the conversation?

[Lucky Jim]

If Wieters posts a .750ish OPS this season (he's at .737 and climbing) as the best defensive catcher in baseball, he will be remarkably valuable. I'll be satisfied if he hovers between .730 and .775 and maintains his stellar defense - that's an excellent/core component on a winning team. It also creates a significant probability of an .800+ OPS guy through his prime (who also happens to be the best defensive catcher in baseball).

Whatever we get above that is pure surplus. Whatever we get below a .750 OPS is mildly disappointing, but not a disaster due to his glove.

[mweb]

If Wieters posts a .750ish OPS this season (he's at .737 and climbing) as the best defensive catcher in baseball, he will be remarkably valuable. I'll be satisfied if he hovers between .730 and .775 and maintains his stellar defense - that's an excellent/core component on a winning team. It also creates a significant probability of an .800+ OPS guy through his prime (who also happens to be the best defensive catcher in baseball).

Whatever we get above that is pure surplus. Whatever we get below a .750 OPS is mildly disappointing, but not a disaster due to his glove.

Hey welcome back!

I agree that he can be quite valuable as a 105-110 OPS+ guy. Of course we were all hoping for more with the bat, so he'd be disappointing to a degree, but his defense is also better than expected. Total value is the key regardless of how he delivers it.

I've lost most of my hope of him becoming an elite bat, but he can still become a very good hitting catcher.

[Sports Guy]

If Wieters posts a .750ish OPS this season (he's at .737 and climbing) as the best defensive catcher in baseball, he will be remarkably valuable. I'll be satisfied if he hovers between .730 and .775 and maintains his stellar defense - that's an excellent/core component on a winning team. It also creates a significant probability of an .800+ OPS guy through his prime (who also happens to be the best defensive catcher in baseball).

Whatever we get above that is pure surplus. Whatever we get below a .750 OPS is mildly disappointing, but not a disaster due to his glove.

There is no doubt about that. He is already a very valuable player.

But I still don't think, in my time really watching the team, that there has been a player that has disappointed me more..even though he is valuable.

[Lucky Jim]

I do get that. And I would give anything for him to be what they predicted. But with teams as bad as the O's, it's tough for me to look at a 3+ WAR and be really disappointed. I really do think he's someone who could surge up into the .820 to .850 range, mostly because I don't see a slow bat/swing issues like others. I think his pitch recognition continues to improve.

[Sports Guy]

I do get that. And I would give anything for him to be what they predicted. But with teams as bad as the O's, it's tough for me to look at a 3+ WAR and be really disappointed. I really do think he's someone who could surge up into the .820 to .850 range, mostly because I don't see a slow bat/swing issues like others. I think his pitch recognition continues to improve.

See, this is that defeatist attitude I was talking about.

I mean, we have to deal with him as he is and I get that but still, I am not going to be happy with him just because players on our team usually suck.

And besides, he needs to show that he can play defense this well again next year. If his defense slips even a little bit, then he is a 2 WAR catcher, like he was last year.

[Frobby]

I do get that. And I would give anything for him to be what they predicted. But with teams as bad as the O's, it's tough for me to look at a 3+ WAR and be really disappointed. I really do think he's someone who could surge up into the .820 to .850 range, mostly because I don't see a slow bat/swing issues like others. I think his pitch recognition continues to improve.

Agreed. And welcome back, it's good to have your analysis back on the board.

[Sports Guy]

How many runs can a catcher save with his defense? How is that calculated for catchers? Is it done by the number of stolen bases allowed, pass balls, etc...That a certain % of those things result in x amount of runs?