Jamie Moyer ain't retiring yet

[TGO]

He'll be 49 in a few months and just had TJ surgery, but he is rehabbing in hopes of pitching in 2012.

http://mlb.sbnation.com/2011/8/29/2391639/the-greatest-story-in-the-world

He is sitting on 267 career wins.

I am generally against signing veterans just because they're chasing milestones. I am also not a huge believer in signing veteran pitchers solely as "mentors." Talent is paramount for me and you have coaches (in addition to non-uniform staff like Palmer) for a reason. However, assuming the Orioles don't put together a playoff contention capable pitching staff in the offseason (and I don't think they will), Moyer is a guy I wouldn't mind having around for Spring Training. He is almost certainly one of the very best role models for a young pitcher to be found anywhere.

[Frobby]

He'll be 49 in a few months and just had TJ surgery, but he is rehabbing in hopes of pitching in 2012.

http://mlb.sbnation.com/2011/8/29/2391639/the-greatest-story-in-the-world

He is sitting on 267 career wins.

I am generally against signing veterans just because they're chasing milestones. I am also not a huge believer in signing veteran pitchers solely as "mentors." Talent is paramount for me and you have coaches (in addition to non-uniform staff like Palmer) for a reason. However, assuming the Orioles don't put together a playoff contention capable pitching staff in the offseason (and I don't think they will), Moyer is a guy I wouldn't mind having around for Spring Training. He is almost certainly one of the very best role models for a young pitcher to be found anywhere.

Speaking of Palmer, Moyer is one behind Palmer in career wins (268 to 267). It's going to offend me if he passes Palmer. I respect the guy immensely but don't want to see him climb any higher on the career wins list.

[ShaneDawg85]

Speaking of Palmer, Moyer is one behind Palmer in career wins (268 to 267). It's going to offend me if he passes Palmer. I respect the guy immensely but don't want to see him climb any higher on the career wins list.

I had thought the same thing with regards to Mussina. The thought of him passing Mussina just really gets under my skin. Nothing against the guy at all, but he's not in Mussina's ballpark.

[Moose Milligan]

Speaking of Palmer, Moyer is one behind Palmer in career wins (268 to 267). It's going to offend me if he passes Palmer. I respect the guy immensely but don't want to see him climb any higher on the career wins list.

I don't really understand this line of thinking. Who had the better career? Who won three Cy Youngs? Who's the only pitcher to win a World Series game in 3 different decades?

So what if Moyer passes him on the wins list? He'll have thrown more innings to do it.

Plus I'm sure Palmer will be the first to tell you he didn't give up a grand slam. Moyer has given up 7.

[Frobby]

I had thought the same thing with regards to Mussina. The thought of him passing Mussina just really gets under my skin. Nothing against the guy at all, but he's not in Mussina's ballpark.

Agreed. And if Moyer doesn't pass Mussina, nobody is going to pass him between now and the end of the 2016 season, if then. Wakefield (199) certainly won't make it, and Halladay (184) is 86 wins away. At age 34, Halladay is no shoe-in to get there, though it's certainly possible. After him, the next likely candidate is Sabathia (174).

By the time anyone is poised to reach 270, Mussina will have been eligible for the Hall of Fame for 3 years. It's my hope that he's in by then, as voters will have realized that 270 wins is a very rare feat these days.

[Oriology]

I thought Wins didn't matter?

[Aglets]

I don't usually disagree with Frobby but I think I have to here.

If you are worried about some guy passing another guy's "Win" total that means you are ascribing some kind of meaning to the Pitching "Win" stat and that is just not something I could ever support doing.

It'd be better to just forget it was invented.

[Frobby]

I don't usually disagree with Frobby but I think I have to here.

If you are worried about some guy passing another guy's "Win" total that means you are ascribing some kind of meaning to the Pitching "Win" stat and that is just not something I could ever support doing.

It'd be better to just forget it was invented.

To me, the longer the time frame, the more legit a statistic it is. Is it the best statistic out there? No.

[Can_of_corn]

Agreed. And if Moyer doesn't pass Mussina, nobody is going to pass him between now and the end of the 2016 season, if then. Wakefield (199) certainly won't make it, and Halladay (184) is 86 wins away. At age 34, Halladay is no shoe-in to get there, though it's certainly possible. After him, the next likely candidate is Sabathia (174).

By the time anyone is poised to reach 270, Mussina will have been eligible for the Hall of Fame for 3 years. It's my hope that he's in by then, as voters will have realized that 270 wins is a very rare feat these days.

Mussina will be behind Clemens, Maddux, Martinez, Johnson, and Glavine. He will pretty much be neck and neck with Schilling, Smoltz and Petitte. I don't see all those guys getting in.

[SrMeowMeow]

To me, the longer the time frame, the more legit a statistic it is. Is it the best statistic out there? No.

I mean, it's clearly an awful one, though. Moyer is one win behind Palmer and is basically dead even in innings. But Palmer is clearly better, and this is obvious when you look at meaningful stats like FIP - or even ERA.

So I guess the moral is, even 4000 IP is too small a sample for wins to be a good barometer of pitcher talent.

[Aglets]

It's just such a terrible stat.

If nothing else........use QS as a substitute stat. That's not perfect either but at least it rewards a pitcher for pitching well and punishes a pitcher for pitching poorly. Wins can't even say that.

Mike Mussina has 330 QS in 18 seasons. (62%)

Jamie Moyer has 338 QS in 24 seasons. (54%)

To me that at least clearly shows that Mussina has been a better pitcher over his career.

[Nigel Tufnel]

This Deadspin column, where they pretend to talk to Bill Conlin about a Moyer for HOF column he wrote, is pretty funny, especially if you don't like Bill Conlin.

http://deadspin.com/5644385/lets-welcome-special-guest-bill-conlin-as-he-helps-me-criticize-bill-conlin

[sangar]

All I have to say is good for Moyer. He's an old fart and if he can do this I'll be happy and rooting for him, unless he's a Yankee. In which case, I'll be hoping he pitches all season but doesn't tie Palmer.

[Frobby]

It's just such a terrible stat.

If nothing else........use QS as a substitute stat. That's not perfect either but at least it rewards a pitcher for pitching well and punishes a pitcher for pitching poorly. Wins can't even say that.

Mike Mussina has 330 QS in 18 seasons. (62%)

Jamie Moyer has 338 QS in 24 seasons. (54%)

To me that at least clearly shows that Mussina has been a better pitcher over his career.

So, Moose's ratio of wins to QS is 82%. Moyer's is 79%. Not very far apart.

I really don't feel like having the "wins are an irrelevant stat" discussion again. I will leave it this way -- I like being able to converse with very casual baseball fans and discuss statistics with which they are familiar. I'm more than capable of discussing ERA+, FIP, xFIP or whatever other esoteric stats that some people here like to discuss. If I tried to do that in a hallway argument over who belongs in the HOF, I'd lose my audience in about 7 seconds.

[scOtt]

I was going to say all power to Moyer, you go you old fart! (Thinking he was older than me...) Looked it up and I've got him by about 5 months. Screw him.

Seriously, all power to him. I always liked Jamie and respected his late blossoming and longevity. Not sure if I'd take a chance on him here... gut says if anyone could do it it would be a soft tosser like him, heart says yes, head says no.