KLaw : Hearing that Joe Jordan will step down as Scouting Director

[Tony-OH]

Tony, how much of the blame game has gone on over the years when it comes to this issue? In other words, the scouting people blaming the development people for not developing "their" guy properly, or the devlopment guys saying, "well, if you would just get us something better to work with..." to the scouting people?

P.S. I know this issue would have been Chapter One of Mike Flanagan's book.

I personally see it go both ways. I've seen guys that I see some talent in, but they continually have the same flaws as they move up the system until they reach their inevitable demise, and then I see guys that just have the talent to begin with. Obviously most of the guys are not going to be good enough, that's just the nature of the minor leagues, but too many high priced bonus guys leave you scratching your heads.

BTW, Xavier Avery is the kind of guy that I don't mind taking a flyer on. He's got some plus tools to work with even though he's still pretty raw overall, but he'll flash you that upside.

[Flacco Machado]

BTW, Xavier Avery is the kind of guy that I don't mind taking a flyer on. He's got some plus tools to work with even though he's still pretty raw overall, but he'll flash you that upside.

I'm just waiting for him to explode as a player if he can just cut down on the strikeouts.That is what is holding him back. I see him as an Otis Nixon/Kenny Lofton/Carl Crawford. But his strikeout totals are pathetic and absurd. My goodness! Someone has got to help him with this.

Plus, he would have the best name in baseball and we could call him the X-factor.:thumbsup1:

[TGO]

I tend to believe, with the exception of Hobgood, that he drafted good talent that the organization was just unable to develop. If he were in Atlanta he might be a superstar.

Just look at the job Tony DeMacio is doing in Atlanta. He's not a superstar (is any scouting director, really?) but he looks about 10x smarter there than he did here.

[Sports Guy]

I am curious to hear from Tony and Stotle what type of guy they would like to see replace JJ, if he does leave?

What attributes would you look for?

I am asking you 2 because of the interaction you have with the scouting/amateur baseball community.

What was lacking here that needs to be improved, besides just more bodies scouting and things like that?

I should also say that hearing from AllStar and RVA would be good here as well.

[Fan4Life]

Again, ultimately the hiring and firing of scouts is Joe Jordan's responsibility so this falls on him. There is definitely an old boys club when it comes to scouting, and I wonder if that's why some guys stay in one place for a long time despite a lack of track record of picking some future major leaguers. Don't get me wrong, the Orioles do have some darn good scouts, but there are some areas that are rich in talent and the Orioles have seen little in return over the years.

Well... we know there are some guys in this organization that hold positions based on who they know, not what they know. While I think you'd likely hear things if this was true of the lower level scouting personnel, I wouldn't discount it completely.

Also, Joe has always said that he has complete autonomy on who he drafts... that also may not be completely true. I mean what is the guy supposed to say when asked if upper management / ownership dictates any part of the drafting process?

[Frobby]

Just look at the job Tony DeMacio is doing in Atlanta. He's not a superstar (is any scouting director, really?) but he looks about 10x smarter there than he did here.

I had not realized DeMacio was Atlanta's SD. Wren was the one who hired him in Baltimore, I believe. DeMacio has only been the SD in Atlanta through two drafts, so it's a little early to assess how he's doing, isn't it?

However, the overall point that your picks are goiing to look stupid if the player development side is poor, is undeniable.

[isestrex]

KLaw brought up on his podcast months ago that he suspected something was seriously wrong with the Orioles player development throughout the organization if pitchers like Matusz and Tillman were loosing velocity. He wasn't adamant, but he proposed the possibility that it was a deep rooted problem and the whole system probably needed a major overhaul.

I've never had a big problem with Joe Jordan, but I sincerely hope this is the first step towards that major overhaul.

[Stotle]

I am curious to hear from Tony and Stotle what type of guy they would like to see replace JJ, if he does leave?

What attributes would you look for?

I am asking you 2 because of the interaction you have with the scouting/amateur baseball community.

What was lacking here that needs to be improved, besides just more bodies scouting and things like that?

I should also say that hearing from AllStar and RVA would be good here as well.

Really complex question -- will try to answer when I have time to put out some thoughts.

[Ohfan67]

First off, I like Joe, always have. He's a consummate professional, smart, and above of, he's an excellent scout and negotiator. Have I always agreed with his picks or assessments when I saw some guy, no, but I doubt anyone will ever have full agreement with each other when it comes to evaluating talent. Basically I respect the hell out of him as a scout and as a person.

The more I checked around yesterday the more it was apparent that if Joe is leaving, he hasn't told many people. I don't doubt KLaw's sources or information since he's not the kind of guy going to throw something out there, and the fact that Joe's reply to me was that he wasn't commenting meant something is up.

At the end of the day, I think Joe is an excellent scout, but I think there is some accountability issues with his local scouts. All scouts are going to have misses but to me, if you start writing guys up to the point that Joe gives him a significant bonus, they better show up with some plus skills. Let's take Billy Rowell for instance. Lots of people like to point him out as a scouting failure, but when you see how the ball jumps off Rowell's bat in BP, and you see the hose of an arm, you definitely can understand scouts could think this guy has some real tools to work with. Obviously Rowell turned into a bust for various reasons, but at least you can see the tools.

Then, there are guys that show up that have you scratching your head. Let's start with Givens. He didn't have a projectable body and the only plus tool I've seen is his arm. As much as I liked his short compact swing last year, he seems to be hurting to refind that swing this year. Part of that may be instruction and part of that may be Givens' inability to repeat what he's being taught. Another guy is Connor Narron. I can't see one plus tool in the guys game. There's no plus power, no plus athleticism, no plus range, no plus arm. How do you give $600K to a guy who just wants to walk? He seems like a good kid and all that, but I haven't talked to one scout or player development guy who sees why he got the money he got. To me, this is a scouting issue. I'm sure Joe didn't see Narron that much, so someone talked him up pretty good. I don't put a lot of faith in good high school stats because of inferior competition, but I do pay attention to underwhelming stats. I don't care what high school league you played in, no one should bat .294 as a senior and get $600K.

I've heard through various sources that "all scouts" plus up their scouting reports in order to get their guys drafted. I couldn't tell you whether that's true or not, but it does seem to hold true with some of the Orioles prospects that come into the system. Too many guys don't hold up to their advanced billing.

Again, ultimately the hiring and firing of scouts is Joe Jordan's responsibility so this falls on him. There is definitely an old boys club when it comes to scouting, and I wonder if that's why some guys stay in one place for a long time despite a lack of track record of picking some future major leaguers. Don't get me wrong, the Orioles do have some darn good scouts, but there are some areas that are rich in talent and the Orioles have seen little in return over the years.

BTW, I just wanted to add that the failure of some guys to develop has to be shared by the player development guys. I've seen too many hitters with obvious, fixable flaws in their swing that go year to year with the same flaws. It's been like this for years.

Hey Tony,

Isn't the cross checker supposed to basically independently confirm the scout's report? Just asking because I'm not sure how the system really works. Also, do you think Jordan had full control over hiring and firing of scouts?

Thanks!

[scOtt]

I've heard through various sources that "all scouts" plus up their scouting reports in order to get their guys drafted. I couldn't tell you whether that's true or not, but it does seem to hold true with some of the Orioles prospects that come into the system. Too many guys don't hold up to their advanced billing.

Do those scouts get a percentage of say, Narron's $600K? Or do they get a bonus if one of their guys get signed? If so, it seems like a system that would naturally get fleeced.

[TGO]

Do those scouts get a percentage of say, Narron's $600K? Or do they get a bonus if one of their guys get signed? If so, it seems like a system that would naturally get fleeced.

I doubt it. Like you said, that would be gamed pretty easily.

I think it just looks good if a lot of "your guys" sign. For future job interviews etc.

[Tony-OH]

Hey Tony,

Isn't the cross checker supposed to basically independently confirm the scout's report? Just asking because I'm not sure how the system really works. Also, do you think Jordan had full control over hiring and firing of scouts?

Thanks!

Yes, cross-checkers see the top guys but they don't see them as much as the local scouts. And yes, I do believe Jordan has full-control over this scouts.

[Tony-OH]

Do those scouts get a percentage of say, Narron's $600K? Or do they get a bonus if one of their guys get signed? If so, it seems like a system that would naturally get fleeced.

Not that I know of. However, the more guys you get into the system the more chance you get a of guy turning into a major leaguer. The more guys you draft that become major leaguers the more secure you become.

[Ohfan67]

Thanks for the info Tony

[Tony-OH]

If Jordan's letting scouts snowball him and get away with it, then it's not a bad thing he'll be walking out the door...

The lack of accountablity in this organization is staggering...

Nobody said that. Stop reading into things...