Very Interesting NY Daily News Article about Angelos and Showalter

[Sports Guy]

I've advocated LT deals to players that are premium or close to it. And I know people will bring up the Figgins example time and time again. Every GM makes mistakes. Just look at the Roberts extension. But Holliday and Teixeira were both worth the commitments they got. And we also have no idea how Figgins would have performed in a better offensive park or with a different hitting coach, etc.

And Holliday - we have no idea if that would have landed him or not because the Orioles never offered it. We can speculate if it wouldn't get him or not, but he never got a chance to turn it down.

The Orioles never even made an attempt to get him and look at what position we need to fill this offseason - LF.

You wanted Vlad. You wanted Moyer. You wanted Figgins. There have been others.

My point is this...You continue to bash AM left and right for poor mid tier signings...and you are 100% correct. The problem is, what you bash him for, you also advocate doing, just with different players.

Now, I agree that not every player is going go work out but with the way you attack AM for doing it, you should look in the mirror and realize that your strategy would be the same thing but on a larger scale...and we wouldn't be any better for it.

As for Holliday, you are right...But here is what common sense tells you...That no player is going to come to a perennial losing team for LESS GUARANTEED MONEY than a perennial winning team is offering him. So, you can say, well you never know but its pretty dumb to say it.

I can sit here and say, well maybe we could get Felix for Blake Davis and Izturis...I mean, we didn't ask, so you just don't know....that doesn't mean the point is a good one.

End of the day, you weren't willing to pony up more guaranteed dollars than St Louis was, so therefore you weren't willing to do what it took to get Holliday here...so, bashing AM for doing the same thing is pretty poor.

[DrungoHazewood]

But Holliday and Teixeira were both worth the commitments they got.

Were? What are you talking about? They're both in the relatively early stages of contracts that take them through their mid-to-late 30s. Tex has declined by about a win and a half each of the last two years. Both of those deals could certainly end up as millstones more easily than being good contracts.

And we also have no idea how Figgins would have performed in a better offensive park or with a different hitting coach, etc.

Oh, we have a pretty good idea that a 32-year-old with a career 99 OPS+ wasn't going to be a great candidate for a long-term free agent deal no matter the park or coach. And are you really going to argue that the Orioles are a better environment to coach and mantain a player than any other MLB organization?

The Orioles never even made an attempt to get him and look at what position we need to fill this offseason - LF.

It's never a good idea to sign a free agent entering the backside of his prime to a giant, backloaded deal in anticipation of maybe being good in 2-3 years. Holliday would be the Orioles' Jayson Werth. If they win in 2014 or 2016 it'll be despite his contract, not because of it.

[Frobby]

I've advocated LT deals to players that are premium or close to it. And I know people will bring up the Figgins example time and time again. Every GM makes mistakes. Just look at the Roberts extension. But Holliday and Teixeira were both worth the commitments they got. And we also have no idea how Figgins would have performed in a better offensive park or with a different hitting coach, etc.

And Holliday - we have no idea if that would have landed him or not because the Orioles never offered it. We can speculate if it wouldn't get him or not, but he never got a chance to turn it down.

The Orioles never even made an attempt to get him and look at what position we need to fill this offseason - LF.

I will admit that Holliday's performance the last 2 years in St. Louis has surprised me. I thought that once he was away from Coors Field, his numbers would drop more precipitously than they have. And, Reimold has not been able to build on the good season he had in 2009 (nor did Pie). I still think that Holliday made little sense for us at the time, though in hindsight he would have been vastly better than what we've had in RF the last 2 years. After two years, you are well ahead on points on this one.

[BrunoCherrytown]

You do realize that you have advocated, time and time again, to spend a lot of money on non premium talent, right?

The Orioles have been awful about that but at least its just been short term deals for marginal money.

You have advocated long term deals, for a lot more money.

How can you sit there and bash the team for doing this when you have basically had the same strategy?

Also, as has been pointed out to you many times, one of your premium guys that you bash AM for not signing, Holliday, you weren't willing to put enough money on the table to get the deal done.

I'd be happy with us overspending in the post 1st rounds of the draft, because #11 spend this year was pathetic. Overspending in the international markets where I think a family of four's dinner at Taco Bell exceeds our spend this year.

Overspending somewhere. I'm never going to celebrate frugal baseball when it translates to a last place finish every single year. MASN and the O's are so profitable it's ridiculous.

And this dollar store baseball that is Angelos and MacPhail's m.o. in Budgetland is getting us nowhere.

I don't think "Moneyball 2" will be written about the O's. Although I could see Angelos watching the movie and trying to hire Brad Pitt to replace MacPhail.

[DrungoHazewood]

I will admit that Holliday's performance the last 2 years in St. Louis has surprised me. I thought that once he was away from Coors Field, his numbers would drop more precipitously than they have. And, Reimold has not been able to build on the good season he had in 2009 (nor did Pie). I still think that Holliday made little sense for us at the time, though in hindsight he would have been vastly better than what we've had in RF the last 2 years. After two years, you are well ahead on points on this one.

But it would have made NO difference in the fortunes of the team. None. We're operating under the assumption that the O's are at or near a payroll limit right now. If they'd signed Holliday to a, what, 7/150 (?) kind of deal, I think you'd have to assume a significant chunk of current payroll would have to disappear. The obvious answer is "well, don't sign all the bad players for lots of money, like Vlad and Gregg!" Well, hindsight is 20/20, and chances are they'd have done some combination of that and not picking up Reynolds, or not resigning/acquiring Hardy.

Without significant other acquisitions, which the Orioles almost certainly couldn't afford, Matt Holliday would have made the 2010-11 Orioles 73-win teams. Which is about as good as just lighting the money on fire.

[DrungoHazewood]

I'd be happy with us overspending in the post 1st rounds of the draft, because #11 spend this year was pathetic. Overspending in the international markets where I think a family of four's dinner at Taco Bell exceeds our spend this year.

Overspending somewhere. I'm never going to celebrate frugal baseball when it translates to a last place finish every single year. MASN and the O's are so profitable it's ridiculous.

And this dollar store baseball that is Angelos and MacPhail's m.o. in Budgetland is getting us nowhere.

I don't think "Moneyball 2" will be written about the O's. Although I could see Angelos watching the movie and trying to hire Brad Pitt to replace MacPhail.

Currently it just doesn't matter, but if the O's ever got responsible leadership and ownership we would certainly care quite a bit about spending limited resources wisely.

[Ohfan67]

The O's have wasted money on mid-priced, over rated or declining free agents under every GM regime since Gillick. It's clearly not AM or any of the other GM's. It's Angelos, Angelos, Angelos. I can't believe anybody can argue otherwise.

[Sports Guy]

I'd be happy with us overspending in the post 1st rounds of the draft, because #11 spend this year was pathetic. Overspending in the international markets where I think a family of four's dinner at Taco Bell exceeds our spend this year.

Overspending somewhere. I'm never going to celebrate frugal baseball when it translates to a last place finish every single year. MASN and the O's are so profitable it's ridiculous.

And this dollar store baseball that is Angelos and MacPhail's m.o. in Budgetland is getting us nowhere.

I don't think "Moneyball 2" will be written about the O's. Although I could see Angelos watching the movie and trying to hire Brad Pitt to replace MacPhail.

Yep.

Spend 15-20 million a year on amateur talent(foreign and domestic) and pour money into scouting and player development.

In the mean time, make some trades, get some more talent into the system and give some hope with the ML team.

[brianod]

We do if we want to elevate stories like this one above the level of yet another stale rehash. There's no news in this article; the fact that the things said here are being said publicly is mildly interesting, but they're mitigated to a great degree by the fact that it's the New York media saying them.

This conversation desperately needs some specifics. If Bill Madden is going to indict PA for cronyism, let's have a few examples and not just the say so of vague unnamed sources. It's not too much to ask. A few fresh examples of PA's intractability would be useful as well. And so on...

Articles like this are just another invitation for everyone to indulge his or her particular bias - sufficiently vague to be endlessly malleable. In the end, no nutritional value whatsoever. You need to look no further than this thread for evidence of that as it immediately devolved into JTrea-bashing, Teixiera scab-picking and of course the usual liberal sprinkling of self-congratulation from those who think this article actually proves something. We all share the same general suspicion. Maybe a few specifics might add some much-needed calories to our diets.

Well said. There is no meat, this is a fluff piece not worth the time discussing it.

[SammyBirdland]

Tex has declined by about a win and a half each of the last two years.

Those "wins per year" stats are so silly.

[DrungoHazewood]

Those "wins per year" stats are so silly.

Yea, that's why I rely on RBI and pitcher wins in my real life. Only when I'm goofing around with baseball or jai alai do I use something as wacky as WAR.

[Frobby]

Yea, that's why I rely on RBI and pitcher wins in my real life. Only when I'm goofing around with baseball or jai alai do I use something as wacky as WAR.

I think WAR is a good stat as an overall measure of the relative value of players' performance, but I'm pretty resistant to actually thinking of it as "wins."

[connja]

I don't think "Moneyball 2" will be written about the O's. Although I could see Angelos watching the movie and trying to hire Brad Pitt to replace MacPhail.

Brad Pitt makes far more money in his current job than Angelos could/would ever pay him :-)