Bigger Bust?

[Pedro Cerrano]

The term "biggest bust in franchise history" is indeed a rather strict definition. You specifically said that Matt Wieters was THE biggest bust in franchise history. A definitive, precise statement such as that allows for very little room for varied interpretations.

Well, this does very little to actually respond to the post you quoted.

Perhaps you should return to the Romper Room and make more PRETTY threads.

[Tony-OH]

This has to be set up of a poll because clearly this is not up for any kind of serious discussion. Matusz' year is one of the biggest disappointments for the Orioles organization in the last 20 years and considering how many disappointments we've had, that's saying something.

[OFFNY]

Well, this does very little to actually respond to the post you quoted.

Perhaps you should return to the Romper Room and make more PRETTY threads.

Yea because ambiguous terms like "bust" tend to have strict definitions.

Carry on.

The term "biggest bust in franchise history" is indeed a rather strict definition. You specifically said that Matt Wieters was THE biggest bust in franchise history. A definitive, precise statement such as that allows for very little room for varied interpretations.

So, you have no answer for this, do you Pedro ???

[OFFNY]

This has to be set up of a poll because clearly this is not up for any kind of serious discussion. Matusz' year is one of the biggest disappointments for the Orioles organization in the last 20 years and considering how many disappointments we've had, that's saying something.

Yes, it was an obvious set-up poll to get a specific point across.

[TonySoprano]

All true but I respectfully disagree with the notion that expectations for Matusz were as high as Wieters.

After all, Matusz was only drafted fourth overall and was the most highly rated member of the "cavalry" which was going to revive the franchise. But he didn't make the cover of Sports Illustrated so there's that too.

[Pedro Cerrano]

So, you have no answer for this, do you Pedro ???

If the term "bust" is ambiguous, then, as it would logically follow, the title of "biggest bust in franchise history" would also be ambiguous, since, you know, it has the term "bust" in it. If the way I define "bust" is different from the way you do, then wouldn't the term "biggest bust" also be greatly open to interpretation?

Look, my opinion on this matter isn't popular, I get that. And I've had a lot of posters I respect get on my case over it. Whatever. I've said all I have to say. I root for Matt and continue to root for Matt but I stand by my stance that a guy with his expectations struggling to get his OPS over .800 is poor. Very poor.

Again, hope I'm wrong and if the end of this season is any indication, I very may well be.

[Pedro Cerrano]

After all, Matusz was only drafted fourth overall and was the most highly rated member of the "cavalry" which was going to revive the franchise. But he didn't make the cover of Sports Illustrated so there's that too.

Were your expectations of Matusz as high as your expectations of Wieters when they were both called up to the Show?

[Can_of_corn]

Were your expectations of Matusz as high as your expectations of Wieters when they were both called up to the Show?

I would say the expectations for Ben McDonald were right up there. I remember watching the Sports Reporters back in '89 and one of the commentators suggested that the O's would beat out the Jays for the AL East crown because of the recently drafted McDonald. I don't even think he had signed yet when the prediction was made. Folks were saying he would step in and be a Clemens-like performer from the word go.

Ben ended up with a .500 career record, I would say Matt has been a bit better then that so far.

[Guest rochester]

I have been a bit disappointed with Wieters offense but have never felt he was a bust. Of course, I never agreed with the savior mentality either fwiw

[OFFNY]

I would say the expectations for Ben McDonald were right up there. I remember watching the Sports Reporters back in '89 and one of the commentators suggested that the O's would beat out the Jays for the AL East crown because of the recently drafted McDonald. I don't even think he had signed yet when the prediction was made. Folks were saying he would step in and be a Clemens-like performer from the word go.

Ben ended up with a .500 career record, I would say Matt has been a bit better then that so far.

Actually, Ben wound up with a career record of over .500 (78 Wins -70 Losses). More significantly, his career ERA was under 4 (3.91) while pitching his entire career in the American League with a DH ........ and he also pitched half of his 9-year career in the offensively-inflated era, when the standards for effective starting pitching were significantly lower than they were in the past (for example, a pitcher in the 60's and 70's was considered to have a very effective/successful ERA if it was under 3. A pitcher in the mid-90's to the present is considered to have a effective ERA if it is under 4).

As Oriole fans, we were hoping that Ben would have a career with an amount of effectiveness somewhere in the neighborhood of McNally or Cuellar, hence sometimes when we judge him, our memories can be somewhat skewed. Overall, I would say that Matt still has an INCOMPLETE when comparing him to McDonald because he has only played 2 and-a-half seasons so far. I think we'll have a better idea of how he stacks up to a player that had a career like McDonald in about 3-5 more years.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/m/mcdonbe01.shtml

[Can_of_corn]

Actually, Ben wound up with a career record of over .500 (78 Wins-70 Losses). More significantly, his career ERA was under 4 (3.91) while pitching his entire career in the American League with a DH ........ and he also pitched half of his 9-year career in the offensively-inflated era, when the standards for effective starting pitching were significantly lower than in the past (for example, a pitcher in the 60's and 70's was considered to have a very effective/successful ERA if it was under 3. A pitcher in the mid-90'sa to the present is considered to have an effective ERA if it is under 4).

As Oriole fans, we were hoping that Ben would have a career with the effectiveness in the neighborhood of McNally or Cuellar, hence sometimes when we judge him, our memories can be somewhat skewed. Overall, I would say that Matt still has an INCOMPLETE when comparing him to McDonald, because he has only played 2 and-a-half seasons so far. I think we'll have a better idea of how he stacks up to a player that had a career like McDonald in about 3-5 more years.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/m/mcdonbe01.shtml

Sorry about the record, I was going off memory.

However you are underselling the Big Ben hype at a national level. He was Prior before Prior, he was Strasburg before Strasburg. He was touted as being a perennial Cy Young contender out of the gate.

I am betting that if the internet had been up and running there would have been BigBen Facts page.

[OFFNY]

Sorry about the record, I was going off memory.

However you are underselling the Big Ben hype at a national level. He was Prior before Prior, he was Strasburg before Strasburg. He was touted as being a perennial Cy Young contender out of the gate.

I am betting that if the internet had been up and running there would have been BigBen Facts page.

I said that we were expecting him to have a career that had an effectiveness similar to that of McNally and Cueller. How is that underselling his hype ? McNally and Cueller are both regarded as great, borderline Hall-of-Famers both by Oriole fans and nationally by fans of all of the other teams.

[JamesI]

Sorry about the record, I was going off memory.

However you are underselling the Big Ben hype at a national level. He was Prior before Prior, he was Strasburg before Strasburg. He was touted as being a perennial Cy Young contender out of the gate.

I am betting that if the internet had been up and running there would have been BigBen Facts page.

I agree with this. I remember seeing McDonald in Rochester (he had been sent down on an injury rehab assignment) and the place was packed to see Ben McDonald. He was huge, and his career being respectable was a bust based on the hype.

[Can_of_corn]

I said that we were expecting him to have a career that had an effectiveness similar to that of McNally and Cueller. How is that underselling his hype ? McNally and Cueller are both regarded as great, borderline Hall-of-Famers both by Oriole fans and nationally by fans of all of the other teams.

McNally or Cueller were not borderline HOF guys. McNally got 1.2% support in '81, Cueller got 0% support in '83.

[OFFNY]

McNally or Cueller were not borderline HOF guys. McNally got 1.2% support in '81, Cueller got 0% support in '83.

Not according to the voters, but according to their numbers and the pitchers that their careers were similar to, they were.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/c/cuellmi01.shtml

http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/m/mcnalda01.shtml