What evidence do we have that Angelos...

[Can_of_corn]

I'm glad he did. Vlad was a risk that was worth taking that MacPhail wanted no part of. It didn't quite work out the way it was planned, but still the risk was worth it IMO.

If only he'd gotten involved with the Tex negotiations and when Matt Holliday was available...

You are glad the O's spent 8 million on replacement level production? Even if Vlad was Vlad of 2005 the O's were not making the playoffs this year.

In no way could the Vlad signing be considered a good idea, in a way it was worse then the Atkins signing, because at least with the Atkins deal, the O's needed someone to play first.

[Florida_Osfan]

I'm glad he did. Vlad was a risk that was worth taking that MacPhail wanted no part of. It didn't quite work out the way it was planned, but still the risk was worth it IMO.

If only he'd gotten involved with the Tex negotiations and when Matt Holliday was available...

This response is about as insane as it is misguided. How's that Tex contract working out? Oh, not so great. But if PA had only gotten involved, right? How did that Vladdy contract work out? Oh, not so great. But it was smart to get involved this time? He's gets a pass one time from you so long as AM is the GM, right?

Sorry, but you're just trolling if you think people shouldn't notice your inconsistent opinions.

[CA-ORIOLE]

Gee, I thought Andy was the team president, and Buck was the field manager who worked for Andy. Why was Angelos involved again?

The reality is most organizations aren't authoritarian in nature and what you're describing isn't atypical. ML managers, GM's and owners have varying degrees of interaction and some managers play more into the decision process than others. Not surprising that Buck would fall into the more clout category. In this case, it's less likely a case that PA intervened on his own volition, but rather he resolved a difference of opinion between his top two managers. A relatively mnor one at that. I suspect PA is actually less involved than many other owners at this point with respect to player personnel issues with the larger issue being the overhaul of the supporting organizational structure itself.

[Florida_Osfan]

The reality is most organizations aren't authoritarian in nature and what you're describing isn't atypical. ML managers, GM's and owners have varying degrees of interaction and some managers play more into the decision process than others. Not surprisong that Buck would fall into the more clout category. In this case it's less likely a case that PA intervened on his own volition, but rather he resolved a difference of opinion between his top two managers. A relatively mnor one at that. I suspect PA is actually is less involved than many other owners at this point with respect to personnel issues with the larger issue being the organizational structure itself.

But what is your evidence for disbelieving it? You have an argument that says, "prove it! prove it!" and yet you offer no evidence to contradict what some media sources and former employees have attested to for the past decade.

[CA-ORIOLE]

But what is your evidence for disbelieving it? You have an argument that says, "prove it! prove it!" and yet you offer no evidence to contradict what some media sources and former employees have attested to for the past decade.

I said his quoted statement was "likely misleading imo" and provided my opinion of the more likely context. Show me where my argument says/implies "prove it, prove it". Obviously no one is going to be able to pull out a smoking gun in this sort of a debate.

Also the OP states it is looking more about the relatively recent past.

[TonySoprano]

The reality is most organizations aren't authoritarian in nature and what you're describing isn't atypical. ML managers, GM's and owners have varying degrees of interaction and some managers play more into the decision process than others. Not surprisong that Buck would fall into the more clout category. In this case it's less likely a case that PA intervened on his own volition, but rather he resolved a difference of opinion between his top two managers. A relatively mnor one at that. I suspect PA is actually less involved than many other owners at this point with respect to player personnel issues with the larger issue being the overhaul of the supporting organizational structure itself.

You call it "intervening." We agree it was about a relatively minor issue, which is why I call it meddling. I guess we'll have to agree to disagree, because I believe that Andy should have the latitude to work out a deal at that level on his own. Buck didn't really start meeting with Angelos, at MacPhail's encouragement, until this season, so let's not pretend that Pete and Buck were confidantes last offseason.

[CA-ORIOLE]

Buck didn't really start meeting with Angelos, at MacPhail's encouragement, until this season, so let's not pretend that Pete and Buck were confidantes last offseason.

This is definitely our point of disagreement. For me there is no way AM is going to pay Vlad that much money on his own volition and no way that PA is just going to demand he do so on his own volition. So, I strongly believe BS was the influence.

[TonySoprano]

This is definitely our point of disagreement. For me there is no way AM is going to pay Vlad that much money on his own volition and no way that PA is just going to demand he do so on his own volition. So, I strongly believe BS was the influence.

...or Vlad's agent. Agents have contacted Angelos before (see Mora, Melvin). Neither of us knows for sure why Angelos got involved, but I maintain he shouldn't have.

[CA-ORIOLE]

...or Vlad's agent. Agents have contacted Angelos before (see Mora, Melvin). Neither of us knows for sure why Angelos got involved, but I maintain he shouldn't have.

Yeah, no one knows the details or for sure what happened. At some point later maybe more comes out. We'll just have to disagree.

[JTrea81]

This response is about as insane as it is misguided. How's that Tex contract working out? Oh, not so great. But if PA had only gotten involved, right? How did that Vladdy contract work out? Oh, not so great. But it was smart to get involved this time? He's gets a pass one time from you so long as AM is the GM, right?

Sorry, but you're just trolling if you think people shouldn't notice your inconsistent opinions.

The Yankees did win the WS in the first year of Tex's contract, right?

And for Vlad, it was a 1 year deal. 1 year that didn't cripple the organization and if it worked out right would have given the offense a needed boost. It was a risk worth taking and I'm glad the Orioles did.

Risks do have to be taken for this club to move forward, and they need to be bigger risks to get the type of talent we need on this club to win. I'm hopeful the new GM along with Buck are ready to do just that.

[CA-ORIOLE]

The Yankees did win the WS in the first year of Tex's contract, right?

And for Vlad, it was a 1 year deal. 1 year that didn't cripple the organization and if it worked out right would have given the offense a needed boost. It was a risk worth taking and I'm glad the Orioles did.

Risks do have to be taken for this club to move forward, and they need to be bigger risks to get the type of talent we need on this club to win. I'm hopeful the new GM along with Buck are ready to do just that.

Risk worth taking for what? A .500 record?

[scOtt]

This is definitely our point of disagreement. For me there is no way AM is going to pay Vlad that much money on his own volition and no way that PA is just going to demand he do so on his own volition. So, I strongly believe BS was the influence.

This is a classic Angelos move. Forcing is too strong a word... Urging his front office to get a certain player because

1. It's a famous name he knows

2. Player has a big rep

3. Thinks he knows more than his baseball men, who are lukewarm at best on an over the hill star.

And even if you think Vlad was Good idea that failed, or was not a failure because it was a one year deal... This is the WORST thing PA can do. He has no business whatsoever making baseball decisions! He sets the budget, he can approve a bump to the budget if the front office wants a player, or nix a deal because of the $$$

PA CANNOT BE CHOOSING PLAYERS. EVER.

[Florida_Osfan]

The Yankees did win the WS in the first year of Tex's contract, right?

And for Vlad, it was a 1 year deal. 1 year that didn't cripple the organization and if it worked out right would have given the offense a needed boost. It was a risk worth taking and I'm glad the Orioles did.

Risks do have to be taken for this club to move forward, and they need to be bigger risks to get the type of talent we need on this club to win. I'm hopeful the new GM along with Buck are ready to do just that.

Worth what? To have a ridiculous albatross contract (NTC as well) that will prevent the FO from trading him to another team. And we wouldn't have won the WS with him. So, how would the O's be faring with that deal right now? We'd be screwed, and that's the point. The Yanks can survive it - we can't and your point conveniently omits it. I agree that risks are good and something we need. The MH deal is working well for the Cards, but we missed out on it.

And Vladdy was a lost investment. A guy that provided no above replacement value is a bad investment (no spinning necessary). You're giving PA a pass on the Vlad contract, but are cutting down a GM for backing off - not once but twice - the high cost of a player.

[Can_of_corn]

The Yankees did win the WS in the first year of Tex's contract, right?

And for Vlad, it was a 1 year deal. 1 year that didn't cripple the organization and if it worked out right would have given the offense a needed boost. It was a risk worth taking and I'm glad the Orioles did.

Risks do have to be taken for this club to move forward, and they need to be bigger risks to get the type of talent we need on this club to win. I'm hopeful the new GM along with Buck are ready to do just that.

Folks keep saying this and it isn't true. The O's owe Vlad 3 million in deferred payments, that isn't going to be 3 million coming out of Angelos' pockets, its 3 million coming out of the O's funds. That might be an overslot draft pick and a half dozen international kids not signed.

The O's are not in a position to be throwing money away on over the hill vets in a hopeless effort to sell a few season ticket plans.

[CA-ORIOLE]

1. It's a famous name he knows

2. Player has a big rep

3. Thinks he knows more than his baseball men, who are lukewarm at best on an over the hill start

Again, I don't think any of the criticsms are applicable in this case. It's my opinion he was resolving a difference between his two baseball men. FWIW, I was against signing VLAD from the start.