What evidence do we have that Angelos...

[Can_of_corn]

Let me guess...

spend more money = more winning = more money = more spending = more winning = more money = more spending = more winning, ad infinitum

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Mo money, Mo money, Mo money!

[Flosman]

Let me guess...

spend more money = more winning = more money = more spending = more winning = more money = more spending = more winning, ad infinitum

Yes it really is that easy. I mean since the Red Sox adopted this plan they have never missed the Playoffs. A team like the Rays have no chance against big spenders.

BTW did Trea notice that 2 out of the top 6 team in payroll made the post season and 2 of the bottom 6 in payroll made the post season. I know that you can't win in the AL East on the cheap unless you play in a dome.

The real problem is we do just about everything possible in the organization poorly.

[crawjo]

Of course it is...We don't have the proper depth. We don't have the proper instruction. We don't have the proper development. We haven't made the right moves.

The list goes on and on....PA is a monster reason for all of that.

I don't agree. I think the GM, the coaches and the players are more responsible than PA is. PA is ultimately responsible, yes, but if we just fall into the trap of blaming the owner for everything then it leads to complacency until the ownership changes. And that's what I think is dangerous about this line of thought.

I just find it somewhat amusing that people talk about how meddlesome an owner PA is but then when they give specific examples, PA as often as not saves the organization from making a dumb move. And I'm sorry, but trading Bobby Bonilla in July of 1996 for Jeromy Burnitz was not going to fundamentally alter the future path of the organization. All it likely would have done would have been to prevent the Orioles from reaching the postseason in 1996 and getting to the ALCS for the first time in 13 years.

IMO, this organization started heading down the wrong track after the 1997 offseason, not so much because Davey Johnson was fired for dumb reasons, but rather because the Orioles doubled down on an aging roster by acquiring guys like Joe Carter and Doug Drabek that sent us into our subsequent death spiral, which was ensured by the poverty of the farm system. And by the way, the Orioles farm system was pretty bad prior to Angelos buying the team. After Ripken the only real success was Mussina. After 1982 the first impact position player to reach the majors and help the Orioles in any significant way was arguably Brian Roberts, which is really shocking when you think about it.

As for all the remarks about King Peter and so forth, many GMs have to deal with egomaniacal owners. King Peter, after all, is a takeoff on King George, the guy who was supposedly a horrible owner who "wrecked the Yankees franchise" in the words of George Will, until his club somehow won four championships in five years despite him.

[JTrea81]

I don't agree. I think the GM, the coaches and the players are more responsible than PA is. PA is ultimately responsible, yes, but if we just fall into the trap of blaming the owner for everything then it leads to complacency until the ownership changes. And that's what I think is dangerous about this line of thought.

And this is exactly what is happening here IMO. PGA stepped back when he hired MacPhail, and while he deserves blame for hiring MacPhail, the decisions that MacPhail made were not Angelos' and the subsequent failure falls on MacPhail. Yet Peter Angelos takes the blame because he's the constant and some seem to still have a "soft spot" for MacPhail because of the trades he made. Roch mentioned that MacPhail would never ask for more money when he had the opportunity, and MacPhail often admitted to being more conservative than Angelos who was eager to spend more money to win now.

Hopefully with a new GM and Buck leading this team this offseason, we'll finally see that Angelos is willing to spend the resources to win and that constant "blame Angelos" refrain can be silenced. If not, then at least we'll know it's not complacency, but the truth.

Either way this offseason will reveal a lot about the future of this franchise under Peter Angelos.

[Can_of_corn]

And this is exactly what is happening here IMO. PGA stepped back when he hired MacPhail, and while he deserves blame for hiring MacPhail, the decisions that MacPhail made were not Angelos' and the subsequent failure falls on MacPhail. Yet Peter Angelos takes the blame because he's the constant and some seem to still have a "soft spot" for MacPhail because of the trades he made. Roch mentioned that MacPhail would never ask for more money when he had the opportunity, and MacPhail often admitted to being more conservative than Angelos who was eager to spend more money to win now.

Hopefully with a new GM and Buck leading this team this offseason, we'll finally see that Angelos is willing to spend the resources to win and that constant "blame Angelos" refrain can be silenced. If not, then at least we'll know it's not complacency, but the truth.

Either way this offseason will reveal a lot about the future of this franchise under Peter Angelos.

Except for

Stockstill

Showalter

Vlad

That is just what we know of, considering how close to the vest folks in the O's FO plays things I would be surprised if that is all the meddling he did.

He also kept a much tighter hold of the purse-strings in regards to the draft then I would like.

[JTrea81]

Except for

Stockstill

Showalter

Vlad

That is just what we know of, considering how close to the vest folks in the O's FO plays things I would be surprised if that is all the meddling he did.

He also kept a much tighter hold of the purse-strings in regards to the draft then I would like.

Stockstill is an issue, no doubt. Showalter and Vlad were pluses. As for the draft, how do you know that wasn't MacPhail that limited that budget?

[DrungoHazewood]

As for the draft, how do you know that wasn't MacPhail that limited that budget?

Then Angelos should have fired him or instructed him to spend more. If MacPhail refused to build an international program, Angelos should have fired him. If MacPhail refused to bid on Sano or Chapman, fire him. Angelos did none of these, and still begged him to return, so I have to assume he was at least ok with all of it.

[Can_of_corn]

Stockstill is an issue, no doubt. Showalter and Vlad were pluses. As for the draft, how do you know that wasn't MacPhail that limited that budget?

Even if wasting 8 million on a replacement level performance was a "plus" it still shows that Angelos was still meddling and not "stepping back".

As for the draft budget, well AM traded a reliever in order to have the money to sign a draft pick. He also had to ask for more money to sign Givens. That doesn't sound like someone in control of the budget.

[JTrea81]

Then Angelos should have fired him or instructed him to spend more. If MacPhail refused to build an international program, Angelos should have fired him. If MacPhail refused to bid on Sano or Chapman, fire him. Angelos did none of these, and still begged him to return, so I have to assume he was at least ok with all of it.

But I thought people wanted Angelos to stay out of it and just let MacPhail run things the way he wanted to? And it appears that's what he did.

[CA-ORIOLE]

But I thought people wanted Angelos to stay out of it and just let MacPhail run things the way he wanted to? And it appears that's what he did.

For the most part, I agree with this. Certainly with respect to player personnel issues. The supporting organizational structure is the one I wonder about.

[allstar1579]

But I thought people wanted Angelos to stay out of it and just let MacPhail run things the way he wanted to? And it appears that's what he did.

Yeah that was the story going into the AMac days, but then once it became more clear what his philosophies and style was the question became is AMac the right person to develop this team in today's MLB?

Like CA I think was saying, the fact that PA labeled a couple guys "sacred cows" so to speak, is a meddling thing though. We'll never know if the organizational staff was actually what AM would have brought in because he's a professional and would never throw PA under the bus like that. (although most of us know by now how PA is in certain areas)

[crawjo]

The issue of ownership interference is one that is seen in many clubs, though. I mean, from everything I hear, Theo Epstein for instance doesn't really have carte blanche in Boston. Henry and Lucchino have their say....the reality is that there are few owners who are happy to just hire people and then write the checks. These guys all have huge egos and many of them became sports owners because they wanted to be involved.

I don't think anyone would dispute that Angelos, especially since 1997, has been a poor owner who has made a series of bad decisions. But this does not mean that the Orioles are a lost cause until he sells the team, or that the people in place in the organization are all hemmed in by him and his stupidity. After all, the stories about Angelos pale in comparison to the meddling of Steinbrenner from the 1970s to the 1990s.

[El Gordo]

The issue of ownership interference is one that is seen in many clubs, though. I mean, from everything I hear, Theo Epstein for instance doesn't really have carte blanche in Boston. Henry and Lucchino have their say....the reality is that there are few owners who are happy to just hire people and then write the checks. These guys all have huge egos and many of them became sports owners because they wanted to be involved.

I don't think anyone would dispute that Angelos, especially since 1997, has been a poor owner who has made a series of bad decisions. But this does not mean that the Orioles are a lost cause until he sells the team, or that the people in place in the organization are all hemmed in by him and his stupidity. After all, the stories about Angelos pale in comparison to the meddling of Steinbrenner from the 1970s to the 1990s.

The difference is that Steinbrenner learned his lesson and changed for the better, and PA seems to be incapable of learning anything.

[sangar]

The GM's job is to translate the owner's instructions into the on-field product. So then, with this understanding, ALL owners are "meddlers".

I'm not defending Angelos, but the definition of meddling is "to interest oneself in what is not one's concern : interfere without right or propriety" so by definition Angelos cannot be a "meddler".

[BarclaySouthway]

I believe Angelos took a step back when MacPhail came aboard. He pretty much stayed out of the way for the last 3 years, with the Vlad signing being one possible exception. And really, while stupid in hindsight, isn't the worst thing an owner can do. He basically let AM have an $85 mil. budget and said "have at it." That isn't the worst situation a GM can find himself in. The bad trades that Angelos nixed, while meddling, must also be recognized. PA does have obsession with hanging on to the players on the billboards, and that is a serious problem that would be a red flag for a lot of candidates I would imagine. The field manager will most likely have an unusual amount of influence into who the next GM is and that's a weird situation that could possibly reflect poorly on the owner.

What will really be the proof that PA is starting to figure it out is if he lets the new guy work out the developmental side as he wishes. It's clear that the minors is what this team is relying on to make it competitive. They are non-entities internationally and in free agency. I'll be real disappointed if there aren't some new names on our organizational chart, and we don't approach some rising stars in other organizations to do a better jobs finding and developing domestic talent. It's where the money should be spent.