Angelos interview in PressBox

[utvolzac]

This is the best Angelos interview I've ever read, he goes into detail on how little he impacts the decisions in the FO.

And you people still are saying bullcrap, hes a liar, this that and the other. You all have your scapegoat and you are hellbent on this guy being the devil.

The article is amazing, I know alot more about Angelos now than I ever did. He said plain as day our payroll will probably jump to 110 million or over. Minus the salaries we will be losing its going to be more than a 40+ million increase in payroll.

The interview opened my eyes alot about the guy, he isnt nearly as bad as everyone is making him out to be.

It takes alot of guts to take an interview like that and tell the truth, and if he did, I have alot of respect for Peter Angelos.

:002_sbiggrin: :002_sbiggrin: :002_sbiggrin: :002_sbiggrin: :002_sbiggrin: :002_sbiggrin: :002_sbiggrin: :002_sbiggrin: :002_sbiggrin:

[frankpembleton]

The Red Sox are so rabid because of the yankees. That rivalry feeds a lot of that rabidity. Whenever the Yankees do something the first question is: How will the red sox counter?

That rivalry has created the fanbase that Boston enjoys right now. Now, that being said. Contrary to popular belief theywere not selling out every night in the 90's. If their stadium was larger that would probably be more noticeable to the rest of the world. When you look at the numbers and they say 75% full, but that is 50% full in almost every other city in the MLB.

As much as Frank wants to ignore it, Boston fans are FAR more rabid than Bmore could ever hope to be. Even in the hayday of the "World's Largest Outdoor Insane Assylum" The Orioles were second fiddle to the Colts. In 1974 there was the "Drive for one million" (Or some such thing) An effort to get the year's attendance over 1 million!

The Orioles ahve a diehard fanbase, every team does. But it is alot smaller than Boston's. If the O's had a consistant rivaly like the Sox and Yankees have, that would be different. Its something for the fans to rally around - its thing like that that breed a hardcore fanbase.

Yankee fans, smugly, don't see it as a rivalry. But Boston fans have perpetuated this underdog mentality over the last CENTURY. There is your difference. Could the Orioles be that someday, certainly any team could. But it takes something like that to fester and gorw over generations to truly get that kind of fanbase.

I totally disagree.

The Red Sox have not had more than back to back losing seasons since the 60's - they always have hope for a good team. Do you think they would be selling out games and have this rabidity after nine consecutive losing seasons? Guess what, last time they had a stretch of losing at all comparative to what the Orioles have been through (1959 through 1967), these were there seasonal attendance figures:

984,102

1,129,866

850,589

733,080

942,642

883,276

652,201

811,172

Obviously attendance for all teams was a lot less back then, but those numbers are pretty damning evidence of how well Bostoners supported their team in the only rough years they have experienced in their last 50.

In each of those seasons except the second they averaged well under 13k fans a game. So fine, maybe the O's were having trouble getting to a million fans, but for awhile, Boston was well under a million as well.

I am not saying Red Sox fans aren't passionate, I am saying Oriole fans would be as passionate if there was ANYTHING to root and hope for.

[SilentJames]

Ah' date=' but the Red Sox drew well above league-average in their small stadium from 1989-1992, when the Yankees were one of the league's worst teams (yes, that felt real good to type). It wasn't the Yankee juggernaut, it was a couple of division titles in '88 and '90. The Orioles don't need a rival, they need some friggin' division titles.[/quote']

that would help a lot, I'm sure.

But it is that rival that keeps people interested in the lean years. Knowing a handful of sox fans in my life the mantra "as long as we beat the yankees" might as well been etched in stone over their doorways.

All I am saying here is that the reason Sox fans are the way they are is becuase of that continued, uniterrupted rivalry over the last century of baseball.

Nobody really cares about Navy football for the most part - but as long as they beat Army. All is right with the world.

But division titles heal everything

[bgfield]

I don't know where you are getting this $110 million payroll idea. Angelos said:

So, we're not that far away, but what's that going to cost you? I'll tell you, the left fielder -- with what happened with Oswalt -- is going to cost you a $60-75 million commitment. First base, you're talking about similar dollars. Ace pitcher, I don't think you have to go to $14 million, but you're in the $12-13 range. I wouldn't also include the money for the bullpen. And you also have that guy Jim Hoey, who is 6'5, who can throw the ball 100 mph. He just needs a little seasoning and I think Leo Mazzone will take care of that. And that's where you are and from $75 million, we've just jumped up to about $110 million.

He goes over what it would take for us to be a good team, how much it would cost and how high up it would drive our payroll. He didn't say anywhere that he plans on spending enough to get all these pieces. He could just as easily be saying "Sure, with this guy that guy and the other guy we'd have a great ballclub, but it would drive our payroll up to $110 million!"

And even if IS saying he'll expand the payroll to that much...well, I'll believe it when I see it.

[JTrea81]

I don't know where you are getting this $110 million payroll idea.

He goes over what it would take for us to be a good team, how much it would cost and how high up it would drive our payroll. He didn't say anywhere that he plans on spending enough to get all these pieces. He could just as easily be saying "Sure, with this guy that guy and the other guy we'd have a great ballclub, but it would drive our payroll up to $110 million!"

And even if IS saying he'll expand the payroll to that much...well, I'll believe it when I see it.

I think he is stating that he will go up to 110 million to satisify the fanbase but he is going to whine and complain about it. I have no problems with that as long as he raises payroll.

[DrungoHazewood]

Go back and look at O's versus Sox attendance through the years. In modern history, the Red Sox only very recently started to outdraw the Orioles. Very recently.

I guess it depends on what you mean by modern. The Sox outdrew the O's in the 70s, and most years it wasn't close. There were years the O's were playoff teams and the Sox nearly doubled their attendance.

Overall the Sox have outdrawn the O's 31 years to 22 since 1954.

[Sapper]

I guess it depends on what you mean by modern. The Sox outdrew the O's in the 70s, and most years it wasn't close. There were years the O's were playoff teams and the Sox nearly doubled their attendance.

Overall the Sox have outdrawn the O's 31 years to 22 since 1954.

Year B'More Attend/G Bos Attend/G Difference

2005 32,404 35,159 -2,755

2004 33,877 35,028 -1,151

2003 30,303 33,632 -3,329

2002 33,117 32,727 390

2001 38,686 32,412 6,274

2000 40,704 31,925 8,779

1999 42,385 30,200 12,185

1998 45,490 28,577 16,913

1997 45,816 27,483 18,333

1996 44,475 28,583 15,892

1995 43,034 30,061 12,973

1994 46,097 27,747 18,350

1993 45,000 29,901 15,099

1992 44,047 30,476 13,571

1991 31,515 31,635 -120

1990 30,190 31,222 -1,032

1989 31,299 30,988 311

1988 20,759 30,430 -9,671

1987 22,386 27,894 -5,508

1986 24,977 26,514 -1,537

1985 26,326 22,057 4,269

1984 25,257 20,514 4,743

1983 25,211 22,004 3,207

1982 19,671 24,076 -4,405

1981 18,623 20,007 -1,384

1980 22,191 24,149 -1,958

1979 21,279 29,414 -8,135

1978 12,984 28,301 -15,317

1977 14,763 25,932 -11,169

1976 13,069 23,406 -10,337

Average Diff. 2,449

In the last 30 years the Orioles have averaged 2,449 more fans per game than the Sox. Rabid, my arse. "Bandwago" is more like it.

[SilentJames]

I totally disagree.

The Red Sox have not had more than back to back losing seasons since the 60's - they always have hope for a good team. Do you think they would be selling out games and have this rabidity after nine consecutive losing seasons? Guess what, last time they had a stretch of losing at all comparative to what the Orioles have been through (1959 through 1967), these were there seasonal attendance figures:

984,102

1,129,866

850,589

733,080

942,642

883,276

652,201

811,172

Obviously attendance for all teams was a lot less back then, but those numbers are pretty damning evidence of how well Bostoners supported their team in the only rough years they have experienced in their last 50.

In each of those seasons except the second they averaged well under 13k fans a game. So fine, maybe the O's were having trouble getting to a million fans, but for awhile, Boston was well under a million as well.

I am not saying Red Sox fans aren't passionate, I am saying Oriole fans would be as passionate if there was ANYTHING to root and hope for.

But Frank, you said yourself attendance numbers were smaller all over then. And during that time Fenway's capactiy was even smaller than it is today.

One of the reason Boston is built the way it is is BECAUSE of the Yankees. With every move the yankees make, the first question is how will Boston respond.

I'm not trying to down Orioles fans, please I am as big a fan as one could get. The O's had alot to root for in the 60's and 70's, hell that was the high point of the Orioles existence so far.

There is something to hope for right now. We have the best crop of young players coming up since what seems like forever. There are things to be excited about and there is always hope in baseball.

anything can happen in this game

[SilentJames]

Year B'More Attend/G Bos Attend/G Difference

2005 32,404 35,159 -2,755

2004 33,877 35,028 -1,151

2003 30,303 33,632 -3,329

2002 33,117 32,727 390

2001 38,686 32,412 6,274

2000 40,704 31,925 8,779

1999 42,385 30,200 12,185

1998 45,490 28,577 16,913

1997 45,816 27,483 18,333

1996 44,475 28,583 15,892

1995 43,034 30,061 12,973

1994 46,097 27,747 18,350

1993 45,000 29,901 15,099

1992 44,047 30,476 13,571

1991 31,515 31,635 -120

1990 30,190 31,222 -1,032

1989 31,299 30,988 311

1988 20,759 30,430 -9,671

1987 22,386 27,894 -5,508

1986 24,977 26,514 -1,537

1985 26,326 22,057 4,269

1984 25,257 20,514 4,743

1983 25,211 22,004 3,207

1982 19,671 24,076 -4,405

1981 18,623 20,007 -1,384

1980 22,191 24,149 -1,958

1979 21,279 29,414 -8,135

1978 12,984 28,301 -15,317

1977 14,763 25,932 -11,169

1976 13,069 23,406 -10,337

Average Diff. 2,449

In the last 30 years the Orioles have averaged 2,449 more fans per game than the Sox. Rabid, my arse. "Bandwago" is more like it.

But Sapper, smaller park.

in 2005 The sox were selling out all their games, the O's were not. You have to take that in consideration.

[frankpembleton]

I guess it depends on what you mean by modern. The Sox outdrew the O's in the 70s, and most years it wasn't close. There were years the O's were playoff teams and the Sox nearly doubled their attendance.

Overall the Sox have outdrawn the O's 31 years to 22 since 1954.

But it's also true that the Sox fans have not been through a 9 year stretch of losing since 1954. The only time they were close to having a losing stretch like that (1960-1966) their attendance compared to the rest of the league was not anywhere near as good as the present day Orioles as compared to the rest of the league (over the 9 year span).

And the point of this is not to compare Red Sox fans to Oriole fans. The point of all of this is that Angelos is essentially blaming the fans for not supporting the team as well as Red Sox fans and is using this as an argument for his inability to compete with the Yankees or Red Sox. The bottom line is that this attitude is so out of line it is ridiculous.

[frankpembleton]

But Sapper, smaller park.

in 2005 The sox were selling out all their games, the O's were not. You have to take that in consideration.

Fine smaller park, but they still were not reaching capacity up until the past few years.

[Baroquen131]

SG - I don't see how you can so definitely believe in the causal relationship between the Yankees and the Red Sox popularity. You've got anecdotal evidence from your friends, and there seems to be a little common sense to the idea, but I don't believe there's any way to confirm said effect.

Basically you're telling us it's true. Someone says - 'well what about factor X'. And you've responded by insisting it's true because you say so. Shampoo, rinse, repeat. Color me unconvinced.

Anyway - great interview. I don't like Angelos's implication that the only way to significantly increase payroll is to increase ticket prices. I agree with the others that I'm sure they FO has done a profit analysis to get into that maximum profit window. Not doing so would simply be foolish. The network should help bump up spending. And even if there were moderate ticket price increases, if there was a notable improvement on field because of an increased payroll, I'm betting most fans wouldn't care. (Certain fans would call the ticket prices unnecessary, but the profit analysis would probably say they could get away with it). :002_sbiggrin:

The repeated Oswalt comments hints that we're not going to get any ace. And the spending concerns imply we won't get any big name FAs. We'll make whatever PGA feels are worthy and competitive bids, but when other clubs top it, we'll be out of luck. Again. Repeat ad nauseum.

So once again - he says generally good things. I'll believe it when I see it.

[SilentJames]

Fine smaller park, but they still were not reaching capacity up until the past few years.

yeah this is true.

No team in the history of sport has benefited from a wildcard than the Boston Redsox. There have been 11 AL wildcards - the Sox have been that team 5 times.

That has made a WORLD of difference for them, their fans and their attendance numbers

[SilentJames]

SG - I don't see how you can so definitely believe in the causal relationship between the Yankees and the Red Sox popularity. You've got anecdotal evidence from your friends, and there seems to be a little common sense to the idea, but I don't believe there's any way to confirm said effect.

Basically you're telling us it's true. Someone says - 'well what about factor X'. And you've responded by insisting it's true because you say so. Shampoo, rinse, repeat. Color me unconvinced.

All i am saying that the rivalry between the yankees and sox acts as fuel to the rabid fan fire. All of the fanfare that comes when these two teams meet. The questions that arise whenever one makes a move and how the other will respond. Its basically a college rivalry on a major league level. How many Terps fans, through the lean years, have said "as long as we beat Duke..." or something to that effect. If it weren't for the Army/ Navy game no one would care about Navy football who didn't go there or didnt live within a 15 minute radius of downtown Annapolis.

Yeah fine, if you don't buy into it - thats fine you don't buy into it.

this is just my theory on why Sox fans are the way they are.

[Sapper]

But Sapper, smaller park.

in 2005 The sox were selling out all their games, the O's were not. You have to take that in consideration.

Prior to 2004, how does a smaller park impact anything if they're not selling it out?