Bud Selig's legacy

[BaltimoreTerp]

Also, in this century, there are these things called DVRs which the parents could use to record the rest of the game for the kids.

Funny how you forgot to mention those in relation to the West Coast

[Birds of B'more]

Funny how you forgot to mention those in relation to the West Coast

I doubt he forgot. One of the key functions of a DVR is that you can skip commercials if you start watching late. Ad buyers will lose more DVR viewers for their commercials by starting too early for the west coast than they will by going late on the east coast.

[TonySoprano]

http://www.newtimezones.com/pdfs/current_economic_crisis.pdf

According to this PDF, the Eastern time zone has 47% of the US population, with another full third in the Central. That is eighty percent of the United States that would not be, or would be minimally affected by an earlier start time.

I wouldn't lump the central in with the east. Since you want to be Frobby's helper, explain how missing a couple innings at the end of the game will have severe ramifications on the kids in the east ("hell with the future"), but missing a couple innings in the beginning won't have a similar outcome to the kids in the central - west.

Explain how the future of baseball rests on the seven games, max, of the world series. Explain how we survived no series in 1994.

[Frobby]

I wouldn't lump the central in with the east. Since you want to be Frobby's helper, explain how missing a couple innings at the end of the game will have severe ramifications on the kids in the east ("hell with the future"), but missing a couple innings in the beginning won't have a similar outcome to the kids in the central - west.

Because the biggest drama of the game is at the end. Miss the first 3 innings of this year's Game 6 -- no big deal. Miss the last 3 innings and extra innings -- much bigger deal. By the way, put aside the kids for one second -- even I turned the game off at midnight, because I had to be up at 6 the next day. But really it is the kids I am talking about, because I'm sure it is correct that TV is trying to maximize the 18-49 ratings, which to me ignores the next generation of fans.

[Birds of B'more]

Because the biggest drama of the game is at the end. Miss the first 3 innings of this year's Game 6 -- no big deal. Miss the last 3 innings and extra innings -- much bigger deal. By the way, put aside the kids for one second -- even I turned the game off at midnight, because I had to be up at 6 the next day. But really it is the kids I am talking about, because I'm sure it is correct that TV is trying to maximize the 18-49 ratings, which to me ignores the next generation of fans.

Now we're finally getting to the heart of the matter. This is really about you personally not wanting to have to stay up late for an extra-innings WS game. That's understandable, but don't go using the "won't someone please think of the children!" strawman to make your point. I have yet to see any evidence that states children having to go to bed before WS games end is costing MLB fans. If you have a link to a study that shows I'm wrong, then please share. I was a kid who watched baseball growing up in the 70's, and there were weeknight games then that I couldn't stay up for the conclusion of. Didn't affect how I felt about baseball at all. In fact, the reason my interest in baseball has waned is because my favorite team has stunk for 14 years. So blame Peter Angelos, not the TV networks that want to maximize their viewing audience.

[TonySoprano]

Because the biggest drama of the game is at the end. Miss the first 3 innings of this year's Game 6 -- no big deal. Miss the last 3 innings and extra innings -- much bigger deal. By the way, put aside the kids for one second -- even I turned the game off at midnight, because I had to be up at 6 the next day. But really it is the kids I am talking about, because I'm sure it is correct that TV is trying to maximize the 18-49 ratings, which to me ignores the next generation of fans.

Sometimes the playoff games are over in the first few innings. WS game 1 was over after the 6th inning. Game 3 was effectively over by the 6th as well, with the Cardinals having scored 12 runs at that point. Game 4, also over by the 6th with the Rangers up 4-0. Boy there was a lot of nail-biting, who will win, suspense in game 7 with the Cardinals up 5-0 after the 5th. Your point resides primarily on the 11 inning game 6.

What about the 162 regular season games and their effect on "the future?" How many kids are we losing when the Orioles are on the west coast even during the summer when the kids don't have school the next day?

Maybe we should make sure that an east coast game makes it to the series, for better ratings, right? Game 7 this year, with two midwest teams, drew more viewers in the last ten world series with the exception of the historic Red Sox series of 2004, and game 7 of 2002. (reference) Maybe that money grubbin' MLB should subsidize DVRs, VCRs...

[BaltimoreTerp]

I wouldn't lump the central in with the east. Since you want to be Frobby's helper, explain how missing a couple innings at the end of the game will have severe ramifications on the kids in the east ("hell with the future"), but missing a couple innings in the beginning won't have a similar outcome to the kids in the central - west.

Explain how the future of baseball rests on the seven games, max, of the world series. Explain how we survived no series in 1994.

1) The central zone already does everything an hour earlier (prime time starts at seven, for example), so why shouldn't I bunch them in? Because it destroys your argument that the west coast matters population-wise? :laughlol:

2) When does the drama happen in games? I already read your later post, but when most games that are considered exciting involve late-inning drama, I don't know why quoting games that were essentially over early do anything to help your argument.

3) It is about playoff games in general.

4) Are you really bringing up anything involving 1994 in "baseball was OK" terms? Seriously? Really? You sure?

[BaltimoreTerp]

Now we're finally getting to the heart of the matter. This is really about you personally not wanting to have to stay up late for an extra-innings WS game. That's understandable' date=' but don't go using the "won't someone please think of the children!" strawman to make your point. I have yet to see any evidence that states children having to go to bed before WS games end is costing MLB fans. If you have a link to a study that shows I'm wrong, then please share. I was a kid who watched baseball growing up in the 70's, and there were weeknight games then that I couldn't stay up for the conclusion of. Didn't affect how I felt about baseball at all. In fact, the reason my interest in baseball has waned is because my favorite team has stunk for 14 years. So blame Peter Angelos, not the TV networks that want to maximize their viewing audience.[/quote']

Were those weeknight games in the playoffs?

And please don't accuse someone of setting up strawmen when doing so sets up your own.

[TonySoprano]

1) The central zone already does everything an hour earlier (prime time starts at seven, for example), so why shouldn't I bunch them in? Because it destroys your argument that the west coast matters population-wise? :laughlol:

2) When does the drama happen in games? I already read your later post, but when most games that are considered exciting involve late-inning drama, I don't know why quoting games that were essentially over early do anything to help your argument.

3) It is about playoff games in general.

4) Are you really bringing up anything involving 1994 in "baseball was OK" terms? Seriously? Really? You sure?

Why don't you get back to explaining how the world series, or "playoff games in general," is what makes or breaks fan-dom, and the "future" of the game. Since you're the one that likes lecturing about what a "real fan" is, that should be right up your......alley. :laughlol: Explain to us how young baseball fans in NY or Boston were lost because they missed the end of a St.Louis - Texas game (this should be good, I can't wait for your answer). I'd lay dollar to donuts that the young fans are more interested in watching their own team, instead of baseball in general.

I've already asked for a specific proposed solution, do you want to take a crack at it? What time do you start a weekday world series game on the left coast, or in Texas, or in St. Louis? Keep in mind, you have to accommodate the paying fans in those cities who are actually going to the games. Do you stick with a standard start time or do you make it flexible. If you do make it flexible, what about those "kids are our future fans" in the east?

If you're going to carry Frobby's water for him, it doesn't help when you're using a leaky bucket.

Were those weeknight games in the playoffs?

And please don't accuse someone of setting up strawmen when doing so sets up your own.

Notice how the start of the world series is based around the weekend. I guess the 8:00 pm Sunday night game doesn't work against your idea that an hour earlier doesn't matter, when the NFL is involved.

[BaltimoreTerp]

Why don't you get back to explaining how the world series, or "playoff games in general," is what makes or breaks fan-dom, and the "future" of the game. Since you're the one that likes lecturing about what a "real fan" is, that should be right up your......alley. :laughlol:

Ah, personal attack. Great way to enhance your argument.

Explain to us how young baseball fans in NY or Boston were lost because they missed the end of a St.Louis - Texas game (this should be good, I can't wait for your answer). I'd lay dollar to donuts that the young fans are more interested in watching their own team, instead of baseball in general.

Again, you use a single example. Also, I know that, because my parents were kind enough to let me stay up on certain nights, things like watching Winfield and Carter get the big hits to win the two series for the Blue Jays helped give me a wider appreciation for baseball than just listening to the Orioles on the radio all year.

Sid Bream crossed home plate at 11:52 P.M. to win the 1992 NLCS. Joe Carter's homer was at 11:37 P.M. Luis Gonzales got his hit off Rivera sometime around 11:30 P.M. You really think that is good to draw a young audience?

I've already asked for a specific proposed solution, do you want to take a crack at it? What time do you start a weekday world series game on the left coast, or in Texas, or in St. Louis? Keep in mind, you have to accommodate the paying fans in those cities who are actually going to the games. Do you stick with a standard start time or do you make it flexible. If you do make it flexible, what about those "kids are our future fans" in the east?

7:30 Eastern, 6:30 Central. And do you think the "paying fans" are going to see a difference between a 4:30 start and a 5:30 start in California?

Notice how the start of the world series is based around the weekend. I guess the 8:00 pm Sunday night game doesn't work against your idea that an hour earlier doesn't matter, when the NFL is involved.

That's why the NFL plays their playoff games at night. Oh wait, I mean they are over by 7:30 Eastern, like 85 percent of all other NFL games.

[Birds of B'more]

That's why the NFL plays their playoff games at night. Oh wait, I mean they are over by 7:30 Eastern, like 85 percent of all other NFL games.

You really can't compare the NFL and MLB like that. The NFL is going to draw big ratings, especially for playoff games, no matter what time of day they play. And during their playoffs they only have to go against NBA/NHL/NCAAB regular season games. MLB doesn't have that luxury. They have to play playoff games on weeknights (when most people on the west coast are working until 8pm ET) and on Sundays, when they go head-to-head against the NFL. Also, Fox has the TV rights to the WS, and they also broadcast the NFL, so it stands to reason they want to keep their NFL games (they almost always get the double-header during the WS) as a strong lead-in for baseball so they lose less of their audience to Sunday Night Football.

[TonySoprano]

Ah, personal attack. Great way to enhance your argument.

Actually it's a statement of fact. Cry foul, that allows you to avoid the question...again. Want another crack at it? 14 years of losing baseball has had a far more negative impact on the "future" of the game in Baltimore, than late running playoff games.

Again, you use a single example. Also, I know that, because my parents were kind enough to let me stay up on certain nights, things like watching Winfield and Carter get the big hits to win the two series for the Blue Jays helped give me a wider appreciation for baseball than just listening to the Orioles on the radio all year.

Sid Bream crossed home plate at 11:52 P.M. to win the 1992 NLCS. Joe Carter's homer was at 11:37 P.M. Luis Gonzales got his hit off Rivera sometime around 11:30 P.M. You really think that is good to draw a young audience?

Look at the ratings since then, and tell me how the "future" of baseball was harmed in the near twenty years since your example. Having it your way, Bream wins the game at 10:52 pm, Joe Carter hits his homer at 10:37 pm and Gonzalez goes yard at 10:30 pm. The kids shouldn't have already been at bed at those times as well?

7:30 Eastern, 6:30 Central. And do you think the "paying fans" are going to see a difference between a 4:30 start and a 5:30 start in California?

4:30 cuts it a little closer for kids getting out of school and their parents getting out of work.

That's why the NFL plays their playoff games at night. Oh wait, I mean they are over by 7:30 Eastern, like 85 percent of all other NFL games.

Again, you're talking about weekend not weekday games. Monday night football starts when? With football games running until 7pm, sometimes later, on Sunday, what time would you start a WS game (remember the NFL has a huge TV contract with the FOX network, same as baseball)?

[Frobby]

Actually it's a statement of fact. Cry foul, that allows you to avoid the question...again. Want another crack at it? 14 years of losing baseball has had a far more negative impact on the "future" of the game in Baltimore, than late running playoff games.

Look at the ratings since then, and tell me how the "future" of baseball was harmed in the near twenty years since your example.

4:30 cuts it a little closer for kids getting out of school and their parents getting out of work.

Again, you're talking about weekend not weekday games. Monday night football starts when? With football games running until 7pm, sometimes later, on Sunday, what time would you start a WS game (remember the NFL has a huge TV contract with the FOX network, same as baseball)?

Sorry, Tony, this post came too late at night for me to consider it!

[BaltimoreTerp]

Actually it's a statement of fact. Cry foul, that allows you to avoid the question...again. Want another crack at it? 14 years of losing baseball has had a far more negative impact on the "future" of the game in Baltimore, than late running playoff games.

Again with the single examples.

4:30 cuts it a little closer for kids getting out of school and their parents getting out of work.

Not really. If you are going to a 5:30 game on the West Coast, you are likely getting out of work early anyway. And instead of ~45 percent of the country seeing the most important parts of the game extremely late, you get ~15 percent of the country missing the least important parts of the games early. I can't see where that is a bad trade.

Again, you're talking about weekend not weekday games. Monday night football starts when? With football games running until 7pm, sometimes later, on Sunday, what time would you start a WS game (remember the NFL has a huge TV contract with the FOX network, same as baseball)?

7:30.

[TonySoprano]

7:30.

How does your one hour earlier address this...? The OP talked about 2-3 hours, not one.

And I swear, baseball is going to pay a long-term price for scheduling the playoffs and World Series in such a way that the younger generation of fans never sees many of the game's most dramatic moments because they occur 2-3 hours after they've gone to bed. How many kids actually saw the last few innings of Game 6?

I noticed how you decided not to address this...

Look at the ratings since then, and tell me how the "future" of baseball was harmed in the near twenty years since your example. Having it your way, Bream wins the game at 10:52 pm, Joe Carter hits his homer at 10:37 pm and Gonzalez goes yard at 10:30 pm. The kids shouldn't have already been at bed at those times as well?

Single example? Earlier I gave four

None of the 2005, 2006, 2010, 2011 games were played on the east coast.

How does a late night world series game ruin the future for the game when there's 162 regular season games before it? For the last time, answer this

Explain how the future of baseball rests on the seven games, max, of the world series.

A lost generation of poor, poor kids all because they missed the late innings, and didn't catch them the next day on MLB network, ESPN, or their parents DVR, huh? I'm done repeating myself. I'd love to see how you answer the above, particularly the last one.