Who is the next JR House or Jon Knott we could sign this offseason?

[Boy Howdy]

The sad part in the limited ABs House got, he actually was one of the best sluggers on the team. Despite a .211 AVG he had a SLG of .500 with 3 HR and 2 2B in only 38 ABs. I wish he would have been given more of an opportunity here...

Good 'ole J.R.

I wish the guy well, but he's currently tearing up the Dominican League with a .170/.278/.234 (.512 OPS) line.

No "Knouse" is going to be a real building block for the future contender we're piecing together. At best you can fill a hole or two for a short period and hope to deal him for something to a team in the the race. I'm not against seeking these types of guys out. It's just not going to make or break the season, and there are two handfuls plus some toes full of more pressing issues.

[DrungoHazewood]

To answer the original question, here are a few potential 2008 Ken Phelps All Stars:

Mike Hessman

Jack Hannahan

Chris Shelton

Mike Restovich

Bryan Myrow

Justin Ruggiano

Jason Botts

Scott Seabol

Justin Leone

Joe Koshansky

Val Pascucci

Donny Leon

Andy Green

Damon Hollins

Kevin Witt

Most of them are corner players, most had pretty big years in AAA, they all are too old to really be considered prospects, and I'd bet they all could pretty easily out-produce your friendly neighborhood Jay Payton with the bat for a major league minimum salary.

As for pitchers, your guess is as good as mine. There do seem to be quite a few pitchers from Japan listed as free agents who could be good under-the-radar signings.

[El Gordo]

No offense but that kind of thinking has lead the Orioles to 10 losing seasons in a row.

If you really want to be offended try watching a season of Rodgers' and Bigbies playing every position(of course that wouldn't bother you because you never watch). The 10 years of losing line is tired, stale, boring, and meaningless at this point. You need to find a new act. Millar for example is a good cheap option at 1B for next year unless we get a Loney type in trade. Why bother to play a MiL over him unless he has great potential. Of course if you can get a good RP for Millar, trade him but you're not getting a top 1B prospect for Millar.

[TinCup]

If you really want to be offended try watching a season of Rodgers' and Bigbies playing every position(of course that wouldn't bother you because you never watch). The 10 years of losing line is tired, stale, boring, and meaningless at this point. You need to find a new act. Millar for example is a good cheap option at 1B for next year unless we get a Loney type in trade. Why bother to play a MiL over him unless he has great potential. Of course if you can get a good RP for Millar, trade him but you're not getting a top 1B prospect for Millar.

Beyond the context of this thread/post......10 years of losing = Meaningless??

Wow, simply wow.

Oh, and as to your observations, I'd only counter by saying Millar is a cheap option at 1B, not so much a good cheap option. Finally, nobody, NMS nor anyone, is thinking we could get a top 1b prospect for Millar. To suggest that is utter lunacy.

[DrungoHazewood]

Good 'ole J.R.

I wish the guy well, but he's currently tearing up the Dominican League with a .170/.278/.234 (.512 OPS) line.

No "Knouse" is going to be a real building block for the future contender we're piecing together. At best you can fill a hole or two for a short period and hope to deal him for something to a team in the the race. I'm not against seeking these types of guys out. It's just not going to make or break the season, and there are two handfuls plus some toes full of more pressing issues.

Ah yes, the Oriole company line. Let's try to fix all the big problems. Then if we have time we'll do stuff like find a bench, or decent reserve pitchers, or pinch hitters, or a left fielder.

The big stuff ends up getting "fixed" with duct tape and bailing twine, and the little stuff not at all, and it costs the team 5+ wins.

[Scribo]

Also, I'm surprised that you two, NMS and JTrea, pointed to House's 38 at-bats worth of stats to defend your case. Maybe you were joking? We can all remember how Luis Hernandez' .400 batting average got laughed at, rightfully so (in my opinion anyway). That's pretty much the definition of using a small sample size.

There's a difference. Nothing in LH's past indicated that he would be a solid hitter in the majors. So it was pretty easy to look at his first few games here and figure that he would be cooled off in a hurry. But House's numbers at Norfolk showed that he could be expected to hit reasonably well in the majors, so when he did show pretty good power, he deserved a chance to show that he could continue to do it.

I don't care of LH hit .600 in his first 50 ABs -- nobody in his right mind would suggest giving him another 250 ABs to see if he can hit .350, because it clearly ain't gonna happen. But there is a good possibility that House could be a .750-ish OPS guy, not bad for a backup catcher and PH. He deserved another shot.

[El Gordo]

Beyond the context of this thread/post......10 years of losing = Meaningless??

Wow, simply wow.

Any leitmotif repeated often enough loses it's meaning. When 10 years of losing becomes a reason to play a poor player over a better one because he's younger or hasn't been given enough of chance yet, then yes it is meaning less.

[DrungoHazewood]

I have to disagree here, or at least not care. I'm willing to bet that neither House nor Knott goes on to any MLB success. Of course there's a chance that they will, and you can argue that there's no reason to not play them over some of the (MLB) guys we have sitting around, but they're also a very long shot to do well. Guys like Cust are a HUGE exception to the rule. I won't lose any sleep if we don't sign a single MiL FA with the intention of giving them a starting job.

Exactly. You never see career minor leaguers or journeyman backups like Randy Milligan, Mickey Tettleton, Cust, Cecil Fielder, Joe Borowski, Chris Richard, David Newhan, Gary Matthews, Kevin Hickey, Benny Ayala, Jeff Manto, or Casey Blake come up and play a valuable role on a good team. No, we're far better off signing poor major league free agents for $5M a year.

[Why Not?]

So you'd rather enter the season with Luis Hernandez as your starting SS for 162 games? And you'd rather Jay Payton continue to suck in LF? Or Millar play 155 games at 1B rather than give some career MiL free agent a chance?

Have you not learned anything from the immortal Jack Cust?

I'm for playing the young guys as well. I'd rather see Knott than Payton and House over Bako. But I think the Cust example is faulty. Every year there are one or two AAAA guys who we all want to get a chance. Cust is the ONLY one who has amounted to anything and he has such an odd collection of skills that he shouldn't really count.

For every Cust there are a dozen John Stephens and Jon Knotts. There is a significant backup QB phenomenon at work.

[TinCup]

Anything leitmotif repeated often enough loses it's meaning. When 10 years of losing becomes a reason to play a poor player over a better one because he's younger or hasn't been given enough of chance yet, then yes it is meaning less.

OK, my point/question had nothing to do with the playing of a MiL over someone like Millar, but hey, I quibble. Rather, my point was to take issue with the suggestion that 10 years of losing, taken on its own, has no meaning at this point.

[SrMeowMeow]

There's a difference. Nothing in LH's past indicated that he would be a solid hitter in the majors. So it was pretty easy to look at his first few games here and figure that he would be cooled off in a hurry. But House's numbers at Norfolk showed that he could be expected to hit reasonably well in the majors, so when he did show pretty good power, he deserved a chance to show that he could continue to do it.

I don't care of LH hit .600 in his first 50 ABs -- nobody in his right mind would suggest giving him another 250 ABs to see if he can hit .350, because it clearly ain't gonna happen. But there is a good possibility that House could be a .750-ish OPS guy, not bad for a backup catcher and PH. He deserved another shot.

There's still no difference in pointing to those limited stats. If the reason for keeping him is his solid MiL production, then use those stats. But using his 38 at-bats is just disingenuous.

It's this kind of self-selection that really frustrates me about a lot of the arguments made here at the OH: Luis Hernandez' first 38 ML at-bats (which were pretty damn good and included a home run, if I recall) don't count because his MiL stats don't bear them out. But J.R. House's 38 ML at-bats do count and are an accurate predictor because his MiL stats are more in line with them. All you're pointing to in this case is MiL stats, since the ML stats are (apparently) valid or not depending on MiL stats, so just say that.

I'm using Hernandez here cause he's a good example of someone who gets trashed seemingly because the trend here is that "oh my god, he's not even a baseball player. if you played him I would stop being an O's fan". Which is really just irritating from a logical standpoint.

You know what Jack Cust's ML stats were before his breakout season? 143 at-bats and 5 home runs. That's not really an encouraging line.

So, after this long and meandering post, here's my thesis: It irritates me how people selectively use stats to make their points here. It really weakens the strength of your argument, and shows considerable bias. 38 ML at-bats are NOT a valid tool for prediction or analysis. Don't use them.

[El Gordo]

Ah yes, the Oriole company line. Let's try to fix all the big problems. Then if we have time we'll do stuff like find a bench, or decent reserve pitchers, or pinch hitters, or a left fielder.

The big stuff ends up getting "fixed" with duct tape and bailing twine, and the little stuff not at all, and it costs the team 5+ wins.

MacP has a Herculean task ahead of him. If one is to clean the Augean Stables I would think you would start with shoveling the Huffpoop before you begin polishing the tack.

[El Gordo]

OK, my point/question had nothing to do with the playing of a MiL over someone like Millar, but hey, I quibble. Rather, my point was to take issue with the suggestion that 10 years of losing, taken on its own, has no meaning at this point.

You should try reading things, before you are so quick to read into them. I said simply. I wouldn't want to see a career MiL leaguer play over Millar unless he were better. To which NMS responded, that's why we've had 10 years of losing. To suggest that we have lost because we have played better players over poor ones is nonsense. When 10 years of losing justifies nonsense it is indeed meaningless. You have to consider the context. I wasn't taking it on it's own.

[Boy Howdy]

Exactly. You never see career minor leaguers or journeyman backups like Randy Milligan, Mickey Tettleton, Cust, Cecil Fielder, Joe Borowski, Chris Richard, David Newhan, Gary Matthews, Kevin Hickey, Benny Ayala, Jeff Manto, or Casey Blake come up and play a valuable role on a good team. No, we're far better off signing poor major league free agents for $5M a year.

The Orioles are not a good team.

Seeking out Ken Phelps All Star types is a good idea, just way down the list of priorities for this team right now. Don't worry, signing mediocre/poor free agents isn't even on my list at all.

[TinCup]

You should try reading things, before you are so quick to read into them. I said simply. I wouldn't want to see a career MiL leaguer play over Millar unless he were better. To which NMS responded, that's why we've had 10 years of losing. To suggest that we have lost because we have played better players over poor ones is nonsense. When 10 years of losing justifies nonsense it is indeed meaningless. You have to consider the context. I wasn't taking it on it's own.

Hey Gordo, spare me the lecturing. Your post would have been fine above save the sanctimonious preachy line

Reading into comments, or even not reading enough from them is all too common on OH.

For example, could it be that NMS meant more to his comment than you read from it? Could it be that he meant that going with the likes of the Millars and Paytons have contributed to the losing? Could it be that he meant that our unwillingness to give the likes of House/Knott a meaningful chance, only to give a vet like Millar his playing time, has contributed to the losing?