Roch: Tillman trying to turn around career

[Oriology]

If other teams agreed with you they would trade for him. Sometimes players just aren't very good.

Because if he really is talented the Orioles wouldn't know it and other teams would? Maybe not a totally implausible thesis but definitely not a great assumption go on.

[Gurgi]

It will take me no more than his first two innings to know if he has potentially turned his career around. If he's throwing 88, no he hasn't. If he's throwing 92, then maybe. His 88 MPH fastball fools nobody.

What is really miserable is I think when he came here he was a guy who topped out at 94-95 once in a while. Now we are forced to see him throwing 86-88. What a difference.

[Frobby]

What is really miserable is I think when he came here he was a guy who topped out at 94-95 once in a while. Now we are forced to see him throwing 86-88. What a difference.

Tillman's average velocity last year on his fastball was 89.3. So clearly he didn't "top out" at 86-88. However, he was down from 92.0 average in 2009.

[Camden_yardbird]

I bet there is more than one team out there who is waiting for the Orioles to give up on tillman. He's had around 30 starts, is only 24 and a good quarter of those starts have been lights out as the post above illustrated.

[Moose Milligan]

Can't turn around a fastball with no movement.

[Can_of_corn]

Can't turn around a fastball with no movement.

Sure you can. It is called a cutter and Tillman was making progress with one. A straight fastball, with location and velocity + a decent cutter could work.

I think that is too much to hope for, but stranger things have happened in this game.

[backwardsk]

Did anyone else pick up on where 3 rotation spots are likely set: Guthrie, Chen, and Hunter?

I wonder if that's his feeling or if he's hearing that. Surprised that Hunter would be a lock (even though I think he'll end up winning a spot)

Best of luck to Tillman. Hopefully he does turn it around.

[Lucky Jim]

Sure you can. It is called a cutter and Tillman was making progress with one. A straight fastball, with location and velocity + a decent cutter could work.

I think that is too much to hope for, but stranger things have happened in this game.

Particularly with a plus-change. Which Tillman has the origins/foundation of already.

[Stotle]

Particularly with a plus-change. Which Tillman has the origins/foundation of already.

:hearts:

[atomic]

Because if he really is talented the Orioles wouldn't know it and other teams would? Maybe not a totally implausible thesis but definitely not a great assumption go on.

Replying to the person who said the Orioles are what messed up Tillman. Well if there are smarter baseball minds out there they could just come in give the Orioles a decent trade offer for him give their smarter coaches to Tillman and then he goes on to stardom. Or maybe MLB average pitcher instead of being someone who can't get anyone out.

Why is it so hard to believe that some prospects just aren't very good?

[Lucky Jim]

Of all the pitchers that the Orioles have brought up in the last few years I have the least faith in Tillman being able to become a major league pitcher. I just don't see anything there.

If other teams agreed with you they would trade for him. Sometimes players just aren't very good.

Replying to the person who said the Orioles are what messed up Tillman. Well if there are smarter baseball minds out there they could just come in give the Orioles a decent trade offer for him give their smarter coaches to Tillman and then he goes on to stardom. Or maybe MLB average pitcher instead of being someone who can't get anyone out.

Why is it so hard to believe that some prospects just aren't very good?

Because we don't believe that it's as easy as "he's not very good." And because we've watched him, and formed out own opinions based on extended time and consideration. And because you haven't offered any reason to think he's "just not very good" other than a foundation-less opinion that doesn't diverge from any other opinion you've offered on the board.

Why is it so hard to accept disagreement with your stance, particularly when the basis for the disagreement been well-articulated time-and-again on here?

[atomic]

Because we don't believe that it's as easy as "he's not very good." And because we've watched him, and formed out own opinions based on extended time and consideration. And because you haven't offered any reason to think he's "just not very good" other than a foundation-less opinion that doesn't diverge from any other opinion you've offered on the board.

Why is it so hard to accept disagreement with your stance, particularly when the basis for the disagreement been well-articulated time-and-again on here?

What has been "well-articulated"? I haven't heard anything to even attempt to prove that Tillman is worthy of being a prospect at this point. He isn't a hard thrower. He doesn't have great movement. He doesn't have pefect control. He doesn't have an out pitch.

The orioles are signing every pitcher in the league that no one wants he isn't in their plans. I am also guessing with all the pitchers that Orioles now have that dont' have options that Tillman won't be in the big leagues this year. He will be a decent player for Norfolk.

[Lucky Jim]

What has been "well-articulated"? I haven't heard anything to even attempt to prove that Tillman is worthy of being a prospect at this point. He isn't a hard thrower. He doesn't have great movement. He doesn't have pefect control. He doesn't have an out pitch.

The orioles are signing every pitcher in the league that no one wants he isn't in their plans. I am also guessing with all the pitchers that Orioles now have that dont' have options that Tillman won't be in the big leagues this year. He will be a decent player for Norfolk.

Tillman has been talked about forever on this board. Those who don't think he's "simply not very good" have stated as much, and why, time-and-again. I'm not sure it needs to be re-articulated each time. There's a solid search function on here.

http://forum.orioleshangout.com/forums/showthread.php/115253-2011-GTP-Chris-Tillman?p=2579874#post2579874

[Moose Milligan]

What has been "well-articulated"? I haven't heard anything to even attempt to prove that Tillman is worthy of being a prospect at this point. He isn't a hard thrower. He doesn't have great movement. He doesn't have pefect control. He doesn't have an out pitch.

Seems perfectly well articulated to me. What more do you need to know than this?

[RVAbird]

Still a Tillman believer. FB velocity decreased, but velo on secondaries remained consistent. Some mechanical tweaks and confidence to let it fly can return the FB to 92, and he still had/has some room for filling. I like hearing he's been adding muscle. Still has potential plus change and CB, though he needs to work on consistency.

I'll also add that his 2011 ML performance was not nearly as atrocious as some want to believe - 3.99 FIP, 4.83 XFIP.