Here's our first little tidbit from the meetings

[MikeAD]

I want Kemp but I dont think they are going to move him. I also dont think they will move Kershaw or Billingsley (maybe).

You could see Ethier/LaRoche/McDonald.

Is that enough? All three would start for us next year.

No, not enough at all.

Any package HAS to, has to have one of Kershaw and Kemp. After that I don't really care about he other two.

It cuold be Kershaw, Hu, LaRoche...or Kemp, Hu, Laroce.

Well I guess I would take Loney instead of Kershaw or Kemp, but I REALLY don't think they move Kershaw.

[mefogus]

A few of these guys only had a couple good seasons. Also, a lot of these guys had initial success while hitters were trying to figure them out, and then faded soon after. I was also thinking more of starters. And Matsuzaka's season was pretty average. He got knocked around a lot in the second half once hitters started figuring him out.

But regardless, I think we all agree that the frequency with which teams sign these guys to huge contracts is somewhat absurd.

So basically you are constraining your original statement to Matsuzaka exclusively? Oh OK. Great point.

-m

[Birds08]

So basically you are constraining your original statement to Matsuzaka exclusively? Oh OK. Great point.

-m

No not at all. Think Hideki Irabu. How many years was Hasegawa good? Was just using Matsuzaka as the latest example, and wasn't really referring to your post, was refering to the poster who said he had a good campaign. Don't understand the rolleyes, I wasn't being disrespectful at all, and my point was certainly valid.

[nyjimbo]

Hey birds08: I made the same comments a while back and got run off the board. The majority of the Japanese players are average at best and comanding huge money. Maybe if some of the younger players start coming and can be properly developed it will be far different.

[mefogus]

No not at all. Think Hideki Irabu. How many years was Hasegawa good? Was just using Matsuzaka as the latest example, and wasn't really referring to your post, was refering to the poster who said he had a good campaign. Don't understand the rolleyes, I wasn't being disrespectful at all, and my point was certainly valid.

Hasegawa was better than league average most of his ML career, but granted those last two years were painful to watch. The problem with making sweeping statements about Japanese players is that there is simply not a precedence for judging them one way or another. I will agree all day that the money spent for Matsuzaka was probably a bad idea for every team save two or three. The rollseyes were for dramatic effect.

-m

[mefogus]

Hey birds08: I made the same comments a while back and got run off the board. The majority of the Japanese players are average at best and comanding huge money. Maybe if some of the younger players start coming and can be properly developed it will be far different.

We bandy about terms like majority as if it has no actual meaning, but really it does. Look it up.

-m

[srh523]

Hot Stove with Peter Gammons on ESPN at 5 O'clock!

[SrMeowMeow]

We bandy about terms like majority as if it has no actual meaning, but really it does. Look it up.

-m

Since I'm irritated by condescension, I decided to do a little research.

Wikipedia lists 33 Japanese players who have played at least one major league game. Here's the list. I'm bolding players I've heard of, as an informal benchmark.

* Shigetoshi Hasegawa: 1997–2001 Los Angeles Angels, 2002–5 Seattle Mariners

* Kei Igawa: 2007 New York Yankees

* Tadahito Iguchi: 2005–2007 Chicago White Sox, 2007 Philadelphia Phillies

* Akinori Iwamura: 2007 Tampa Bay Devil Rays

* Hideki Irabu: 1997–1999 New York Yankees, 2000–1 Montreal Expos, 2002 Texas Rangers

* Kazuhisa Ishii: 2002–2004 Los Angeles Dodgers, 2005 New York Mets

* Kenji Johjima: 2006–2007 Seattle Mariners

* Takashi Kashiwada: 1997 New York Mets

* Masao Kida: 1999–2000 Detroit Tigers, 2003–4 Los Angeles Dodgers, 2004–5 Seattle Mariners

* Satoru Komiyama: 2002 New York Mets

* Masumi Kuwata: 2007 Pittsburgh Pirates

* Hideki Matsui: 2003–2007 New York Yankees

* Kazuo Matsui: 2004–2006 New York Mets, 2006–7 Colorado Rockies

* Daisuke Matsuzaka: 2007 Boston Red Sox

* Masanori Murakami: 1964–1965 San Francisco Giants. The first Japanese player to play in MLB

* Micheal Nakamura: 2003 Minnesota Twins, 2004 Toronto Blue Jays

* Norihiro Nakamura: 2005 Los Angeles Dodgers

* Hideo Nomo: 1995–1998 Los Angeles Dodgers, 1998 New York Mets, 1999 Milwaukee Brewers, 2000 Detroit Tigers, 2001 Boston Red Sox, 2002–4 Los Angeles Dodgers, 2005 Tampa Bay Devil Rays. The second Japanese player in MLB, 30 years after Murakami

* Takahito Nomura: 2002 Milwaukee Brewers

* Hideki Okajima: 2007 Boston Red Sox

* Tomokazu Ohka: 1999–2001 Boston Red Sox, 2001–05 Montreal Expos/Washington Nationals, 2006 Milwaukee Brewers, 2007 Toronto Blue Jays

* Akinori Otsuka: 2004–2005 San Diego Padres, 2006–7 Texas Rangers

* Takashi Saito: 2006–2007 Los Angeles Dodgers

* Kazuhiro Sasaki: 2000–2003 Seattle Mariners

* Tsuyoshi Shinjo: 2001 New York Mets, 2002 San Francisco Giants, 2003 New York Mets

* Ichiro Suzuki: 2001–2007 Seattle Mariners

* Mac Suzuki: 1996 Seattle Mariners, 1998–9 Seattle Mariners, 1999–2001 Kansas City Royals, 2001 Colorado Rockies, 2001 Milwaukee Brewers, 2002 Kansas City Royals

* Kazuhito Tadano: 2004–2005 Cleveland Indians

* So Taguchi: 2002–2007 St. Louis Cardinals

* Shingo Takatsu: 2004–2005 Chicago White Sox, 2005 New York Mets

* Keiichi Yabu: 2005 Oakland Athletics

* Masato Yoshii: 1998–1999 New York Mets, 2000 Colorado Rockies, 2001–2 Montreal Expos

The following players had less than 100 at-bats or less than 30 IP and are filtered out: Masumi Kuwata, Michael Nakamura, Norihito Nakamura, Takahito Nomura.

Let's start with the players I've never heard of (stats courtesy of the Baseball Cube):

Takashi Kashiwada: Reliever signed for 2007 by the Mets at a very cheap $150,000. Turned in a 4.31 ERA over 31.1 IP but with truly terrifying peripherals: 10.05 H/9 1.15 HR/9 5.17 BB/9 5.46 K/9. I'm going to call this one a draw on the "expensive and average" scale because the Mets paid nothing and got nothing.

Masao Kida: Pitcher, bounced around between three ML teams, in and out of the minors, alternated between relieving and starting. He made $2.675mil over five years, most coming in a $1.6mil 1999 (his first year) in which as a reliever he posted a 6.26 ERA over 64.2 IP. Peripherals: (same format as above) 10.16 0.84 4.18 6.96. I'm calling this one a yes on the E&A scale because his cheap years came as a journeyman - the first signing was a bust, and that's what we're really looking at anyway.

Satoru Komiyama: RP. I'm not going to go through all of them in detail, especially not boring ones. ERA may not be the greatest stat but it gets the job done. 5.61 ERA, 43.1 IP, $500k for one year. Draw.

Masanuri Murakami: RP. First Japanese player in the majors. No salary from Cube, again, but his stats are impressive, so he's a no. Expensive or not, good players are not "expensive and average". Here's his two-year career line: 3.43 ERA, 89.1 IP, 6.55 1.01 2.32 10.07.

Mac Suzuki: RP. First big sample size, 465.2 ML innings. 5.72 ERA, 9.68 1.29 5.12 6.32 line. Dirt cheap though - $1.231mil over 6 seasons. No.

Kazuhito Tadano: RP. 4.47 ERA, 54.1 IP over two seasons, 9.77 0.99 2.98 6.63. Cheap again, though. No.

Shingo Takatsu: RP. 3.37 ERA, 98.2 IP, two seasons, 7.39 1.55 3.65 8.03 1.23. He looks respectable, until you realize that he got paid $300k for his first season (2.31 ERA 62.1 IP 5.78 H9 .87 HR9 3.03 BB9 7.22 K9) and $2.5mil for his second, split between two teams. The stats were hard to calculate cause I'm lazy, so here's a link . Just think about how bad they had to be to drag his first season stats down to his career levels, in under half the innings. Yes.

Keiichi Yabu: SP in Japan, RP in the MLB. His (MLB) stats are solid-ish but I can't find a salary, which makes this impossible to judge. Draw unless someone finds more info.

I'll do the players I had heard of next. So far most of these players escaped the "expensive and average" guillotine by being merely average, but it should heat up next update when I do the more prominent names! Kaz Matsui right off the bat is looking pretty expensive and average right now.

[Boy Howdy]

* Kazuhito Tadano: 2004–2005 Cleveland Indians

You haven't heard of Tadano?

He's famous...or infamous

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=1720362